Do you provide food for your babysitter? How about money for coffee (for walks)

[Maria2007]

Hi, not sure if this is the right place to post.

We have a 6 & a half month old, & we recently employed a babysitter who works 3 times a week (4 hours each time). We do this so that I can work on my PhD part time. I have a couple of questions, & I wonder if more experienced mums can give me some input:

1. Each time she comes, she takes DS out for a walk, which usually lasts about an hour or 1 1/2 hour (& that's where he takes his morning nap). The first time she came, I offered 3-4£ so that she could stop for a coffee & muffin, as I realize that just walking in the middle of winter is not the most pleasant thing. Since then, I've been offering this extra money (usually 3£) for her coffee- this has happened 3/4 times, since we just started the walks, she was just spending time at home with me & DS so far... but then I'm now realizing that that's A LOT of extra money, given that I pay her 10£ per hour. What is the right thing to do, do you think? I want to be generous & keep her happy, but then again I don't want to be doing something that's too expensive for us (things are tight as they are)

2. Should I be offering food when she's here, at home? I've offered muffins or things like that when I have them (I do a lot of cooking on an everyday basis) but should this be something more regular?

3. Also: I pay 10£ per hour. Do you think it's a fair amount? (we're in central London). Should I be paying the same amount when it's evening babysitting? (we're going out for the first time tonight with DP, we haven't before since DS was born...so I have no idea if the cost should be the same or a bit less or more?)

4. Finally. When it's evening babysitting, I'm assuming I'll have to provide an evening meal, or at least a good snack. I've already offered this for tonight (first time evening babysitting, as I said). Is this right?

Thanks in advance for any responses.

Are you requiring her to be out on the walk for that time? I think it'll be tough if you have been giving her coffee money so far to suddenly stop.

If she's there over a mealtime, then you should feed her. Otherwise, offering snacks is generous. I drink as much tea and coffee as I like when at work (nanny)

Is it £10 gross? Do you pay her enough to have to pay tax on it? I did a very similar job in central London last year and got £10 net, it's more than most fulltime nannies would get per hour, but part time work is often paid at a higher hourly rate. If baby is asleep and very unlikely to wake up when she's babysitting, you could negotiate a lower rate, £8 an hour?

If she's starting babysitting early (6/6.30) then maybe point her in the direction of pasta for dinner, otherwise snacks/toast would be fine.

Thanks Willowthewispa. I suppose I could ask her to take a relatively shorter walk with the baby- e.g. 1 hour tops. What do you think, does that sound more reasonable? I've only given money for coffee 3-4 times, & I could explain that I can't really afford that, except for exceptional circumstances. I think offering a meal (for evening babysitting) is good, & I'm happy to do that... but offering a meal during the day (she's usually there for either 4 or 5 hours in the day, out of which one is the walk) I could just offer a snack?

As for the money, I figured that because it's part time, it would be best to pay a bit more, which is why I decided (& we agreed) on the 10£. But I haven't yet decided about the evening babysitting- which we're just starting tonight- because I don't know if people usually pay less or more for evening babysitting (because during that time DS will be asleep).

thats a long walk every day she is there - maybe do money for coffee one day and another task a flask

does she have to walk, could they not have a play at home, and then sleep in cot and have a cuppa at home?

i get paid £10 during the day and also for babysitting at night

if its an early bs, ie before 7pm then i would appreicate pasta etc, but if after 8 then biscuits (pref choc malted milk ones ) and a cuppa is nice

one lady i do, knows i come striaght from work and always gets me a M&S meal

I am always offered dinner if an early sit, but I normally make sure I eat before I go, or take something with me if going straight from work, but nice to have the offer there.

Also if you are paying her £10 a hour and she is doing 4 hours a day 3 times a week that is £120 a week which is over the limit for tax etc so you would need to be declaring her and paying her tax NI for her, I assume the £10 is gross and not what she would be taking home if she was paying tax out of it, if it is net that is a very good wage.

Evening sitting if baby awake then normal day rate until at least a couple of hours after bed time just in case baby doesn't settle and then maybe slightly lower, although saying that I charge £8 a hour night or day, just in case the child/ren wake etc, would charge a less hourly rate if staying overnight though.

Regards food during the day, yes if there over a meal then you might like to provide something, other than that snacks, tea coffee etc is fine, and as she is only there for 4 hours even if over lunch time then a light snack lunch would be fine.

Explain that the coffee money is proving too expensive for you, and offer to make her up a flask of tea or coffee then. But saying that, 90 minutes walking out in the cold is quite a lot.

When she's there 4 or 5 hours in the daytime, what hours is it? If 8am-12pm/1pm, you could probably get away with just offering a snack, but if I was working 10am-2pm/3pm I would probably expect lunch, even if just a sandwich.

If she's earning £120-£150 a week with you, then it does sound like she's your employee and you should be taking care of her tax and NI.

sounds like she is a part time nanny

it is normal for employers of nannies to pay for coffee / ice cream / lunches out=if out with charges and for nannies to eat meals (from your cupboards) while on duty.

also for employers pay for entry to farms / soft play / swimming (or whereever) and car park fees to

you are legally obliged to be an employer and pay her tax and NI and your own employers NI contribution to inland rev, which they will fine £3k for if not paid.

and to do pay slips / holiday pay etc,

generally if being more of a conventional "babysitter" in the evening you dont provide dinner (unless starting extra early, maybe before 6pm), but would have tea / coffee / crisps /biscuits etc!

true does sound like a part time nanny rather than a babysitter which i generally would say is looking after children in evenings

and yes then she would be an employee and you her employer and yes you should be paying her tax and ni

so yes a kitty is normal, esp if she HAS to go for a walk every day in the cold/rain

We got into the habit of paying the same rate to our part-time nanny for eveing babysitting - £10 an hour.

And frankly I now regret that I did not have the guts to tell her that I would like to pay a reduced rate (I think £8 an hour is fair) in the evening.

We still use her occasionally as we and the kids like her - but I have started to use cheaper agency nannies who have turned out to be really great. And also are a great back up for when she can't make it. It's good to have a number of babysitters that you like and trust to provide flexibility.

I believe you are paying a part time nanny cash in hand.

You should try sitters.co.uk for much more economical evening babysitting.

OK thanks for all this info. I take your point that the walk she usually takes with the baby is probably too long (she is the one who liked taking long walks, by the way, so I don't feel I've pressured her into this). I'll just take him out for walks myself & concentrate on her staying at home with DS, playing etc. But when she does go for a walk, I'll offer money for coffee, a muffin etc.
As for the differentiations you all talk about (part time nanny vs babysitter etc) I'll definitely look into all that, because I didn't know all these differences.

Why don't you just give her say a tenner a week and say she can use it on coffe, playgroup, whatever she sees fit to entertain them?

1. As Athene said. Leave her £10 to spend during the week. It feels much better than giving £3 coins every time.

2. Yes, offer lunch. It doesnt have to be something special. Pasta or soup one day, sandwich the other, omellete the third day, no much cost. As for the muffins, if you have some around and you want to offer her one, do it. If you are going to question it on the internet dont do it. There is no law or book about it.

3. £10 ph daytime in Central London sounds fair considering that it is part time and you are at home (not easy to find nanny who is happy with this). For evening babysitting you could get away with £8 but i quess it is too late now, isn't it?

4. Yes, food and taxi for evening babysitting.

All this should be in contract and you should pay tax and NI. You should also have in your contract holidays and sick pay (i have a feeling this will not go well and you will post again soon). How old is she? Why is she 'babysitter' and not 'nanny' ?

I'd hold off deciding that she is an employee just because she is paid over the tax/ni thresholds. Are her hours fixed and immovable or can she change them? What happens if you don't need her, say if you go on holiday? One of the key differences between a self-employed babysitter and a part-time nanny is that the former is able to turn down working a particular day, whilst the latter would probably be in breach of contract.

The arrangement obviously becomes more expensive if you become her employer as you will be liable for Employer's National Insurance, and providing perks such as money for coffee etc also becomes potentially more expensive (even if you start out doing so on a non-contractual basis, she may end up arguing that it is contractual, and if you pay her a cash float this will probably end up NICable and taxable too).

If your aim is to have a regular relationship with a particular individual sitter, but you're flexible over exact hours, or it doesn't matter too much if the sitter has to change the arrangement some weeks then you should be able to continue on the current informal basis. That said in your OP you have described the fact that you have employed her - potentially you may be doing so unwittingly. And if you need fixed hours then you may not have much choice.

3 times a week, 4 hours each time sounds like a regular schedule. I think for the nanny/sitter to be self employed she would need to be able to send someone else in her place. If OP expects HER to show up then she probably an demployee in the eyes of IR.

But, will IR ever know? Probably not. I guess OP needs to decide what risk she is prepared to take.

Not if it is on different days at different times. And not if the sitter can change or cancel without penalty.
The ability to substitute may be an indicator of self-employment but it is only one factor.

sounds regular to me so yes she is employed

but tech speaking if you paid her cash, no one would be any wiser

what age is she and what does she do the rest of the days?

ie how does she survibe on £120?

OK this is all very interesting to me because- not being originally from the UK- I wasn't aware of the differences in terminology between nanny & babysitter.

As for your questions, yes, she has another job (not in babysitting). And also, yes, our hours are completely flexible, there's a kind of fixed agreement (more or less 12 hours per week) but it's never on this rather than that day, & I've told her I'm very flexible if she wants to change times etc. (since I work from home).

I like your idea about giving her 10£ a week for expenses (coffee etc).

One question- someone said, nannies wouldn't be that happy with such an arrangement (part-time, me at home). I wonder why that would be? Is it the part time or the me at home thing? I think it's probably true because I searched & searched through an agency & couldn't find anyone willing to work those hours. And then I found someone informally through a personal recommendation. She was flexible with times, I was too... and both of said from the start that we'd be going on holidays (e.g. we left for 1 month over Xmas & she left for 1 month at some other time) & that would be ok.

I will definitely be looking into the legal side of matters since this is a recent development (her working with us) but I certainly didn't know all these complications! It's my first child & my first babysitter, so I'm learning now about all this.

Hi Maria,
O.k i thought that you might not be from UK, am not either and i am aware of the difernt terminology.But proffesional/qualified nannies dont like to be called babysitters.

I think even with flexible hours you still have to pay tax and N.I. Or if she is self employed, as someone here mentioned , then SHe will have to do that. (i m surprised that you ve been through agencies and they didnt tell you about tax and N.I.)

You need to discuss everything i.e. holidays, sick pay etc otherwise problems will arise soon.

Finally, it was me who said that it is not an ideal situation for nanny. They prefer more days/hours and they prefer the mum to work away from home. Please dont take this the wrong way. It does not mean that they want to do something nasty. It is just that the job is much more difficult if mum is at home. The baby get confused, he/she plays up, the mum can get upset/guilty if she is in the study and hears the baby crying, the nanny feels uncomfortable and the boundaries are not clear.
I dont know, i hope it makes sense.
Good luck

Tiramissu- I do agree actually about what you say (about me working from home). Its true that it's been an issue at times, when I hear the baby cry (e.g.) & I may feel I want to get involved, I start feeling guilty, want to comfort the baby etc. I try to avoid this but I do realize it's an issue, & actually I'm thinking of taking my laptop & leaving the flat when she comes.

At the agencies they did tell me all this, but as I told you, I wasn't able to find someone through an agency, & then managed to find someone (who I really like) through a personal recommendation, someone who was able & willing to work flexibly.

I will indeed look into all this though, as we're very happy with our nanny (I'll start using the correct terminology!) & want to protect the relationship & create the best conditions possible. At the moment she's away on holiday, but once she returns I'll deal with all this. This info has all been extremely useful.

Evening babysitting - all you need to supply is a drink an dmaybe some biscuits. Not sure about the rate though as it is a long time since I was a nanny.

Nabster, thanks for your post. I'm happy to provide a meal, actually, for evening babysitting, I feel it makes the babysitter feel welcome, & it is something for her to do while she's there & the baby is asleep. Obviously I don't mean providing a huge meal! But just a plate of food I've cooked for us, which she can reheat, & maybe a salad & some biscuits / tea obviously.

The tax and employment law sides of things are a minefield. If you are contacting HMRC to discuss the tax situation, would be interested to hear what they say... as LadyMuck said earlier, there are various things that can indicate a person's employment status.

In the UK we seem to have various job titles for what is essentially the same job...

Au-Pair, Mother's Help, Babysitter, Nanny

All those job titles provide childcare help within a private home.
Au-Pair - was an immigration category, which no longer exists.
Mother's Help - I see this as being more household task related than childcare, though will typically involve some childcare.
Babysitter - I see this as being childcare in the evening, typically at a time between 6pm and 2am.
Nanny - I see this as being childcare during the day.

I'm not going to comment on any of the tax/legal issues because I know nothing about it.

But, re the walk. Some posters have said 1 hour+ is a long walk especially in the cold and wet. Personally I find I NEED to walk a couple of hours a day to stop me feeling caged in. So, if as you say the babysitter has instigated this walk, I wouldn't feel obliged to give her any money for coffee etc. What's to stop her walking for an hour or so and having a coffee when she gets back home?

I think I'll go with the idea of offering 10£ extra per week, for her to use as she wishes. And yes, she's the one who has instigated the walks, I certainly haven't forced her! I'll just be even more clear that I don't expect her to be out for a particular amount of time, & she can even stay at home if she prefers.

I dont think the walk is too long but as a nanny I would rather choose what activity I did.Pretty soon the baby wont need an a.m nap so what will happen then?Isnt there any playgroups she can take the baby too?

I think the £10 a wk kitty idea is a good one-that way she can pick and choose whether she uses it to get a coffee etc.Though she could easily fill up a flask of coffee or whatever to take with her