CM has recently got a Jack Russell puppy - am worried

[Oovavu]

CM got a JR puppy before Christmas. We were not asked about how we felt, we were just informed. CM is very thorough and takes pride in being rated 'outstanding' by Ofsted, so I would assume she has policies in place...although we haven't specifically been shown them.

But following the horrific story involving a JR with the killing of that poor baby in south wales, I did a bit of googling and most JR 'experts' say they do not recommend JRs with children under 6. The puppy is going to dog-training classes, she has her own cage/bed in the kitchen and is not allowed in the playroom BUT her food bowls are in the utility are which the children walk through to use the downstairs toilet. Dd2 is with the CM the most as she is not at school yet and, at 3, is not above unexpectedly reaching out to the dog, etc.

We have been with this CM for 6 years now and we think she is fabulous but I am very concerned about this now the more I've been thinking about it. CM can also be quite touchy and I am very worried about how to approach her about this without it becoming an 'issue', which I know sounds pathetic as it's dd2 I should be worried about. CM also has a dd of 10 who I don't think can necessarily be trusted to watch the dog around the other children or keep doors shit without being reminded etc.

HOw shall I go about approaching this with her? Do I ask to see the policies she has in place, which I assume she would have to have after getting the dog? As a CM would you mind being asked all of this? Some of the websites about jack russells were saying that even accidental injuries caused by small children (e.g. treading on paws etc) can result in being attacked by a JR whi are very territorial.

My stomach's in a knot

keep doors shut not 'shit'

I would be worried too, JRs can be quite bite-y. I think I would want the dog shut away in a completely different room from the children or kept outside while children are there.

Well she's not. I think the real problem is that we weren't informed about the way the dog will be kept whilst the children are in the house. Whilst I've dropped the dds off there has been ample opportunity for the kids to pat her and they all have a certain amount of contact with her at certain times of the day. I just worry that dd2 is not old enough to always abide by the rules there might be about how to treat the dog, etc. esp concerning the position of the food in relation to the bathroom.

Talk to your CM about your concerns. Ask about what precautions are being taken - especially in light of the recent news. Tell your CM of your concerns about your DD2 not following rules with regard to dog handling.
If the kitchen is out of bounds to the children and is where the dog's cage is, could the food/water not be put in the kitchen as well?

The breed is actually irrelevant. Any breed can bite. It is the individual dog and how it is trained that will determine how it is with children.
Surely there are guidelines dictating what happens with dogs in a childminders home when the mindees are there?

There's nothing specific about dogs in the childminding regulations. You have to ensure that health risks are minimised eg. food bowls not left around crawling children, ensuring kids wash their hands after handling animals, making sure dog mess isn't left in the garden. Actualy safety concerns would just generally come under "ensuring children are safe/risks minimised".

Childmnders have to have written records of risk assessments now - it might be worth asking if your childminder has one for the dog. Ultimately even if the dog is kept in another room/outside while children are there, it's likely they will come into contact with them sometime. If you are not happy with what the childminder does with the dog and the small risk that something awful may happen, the answer is probably find another childminder without a dog.

Really though if the dog is kept away from the children, is the risk that much higher than from a random dog your child encounters running around in the park?

The old guidance to the National Standards did mention about pets...

~~ Begin Quote ~~

Animals (7.5)
All animals carry with them some potential health and safety risks. A common sense approach
to managing these is required. Consider the following points:
making sure that animals are free of disease and have appropriate health checks.
For example, cats and dogs are regularly treated for worms and fleas;
ensuring litter trays and feeding bowls are not generally accessible to children;
preventing animals from fouling any areas used by children, indoors or outdoors;
supervising children when handling and caring for animals;
making sure children are aware of and sensitive to animals and their behaviour.
informing parents about animals on the premises and before taking on new animals;
cleaning and feeding arrangements.

~~ End Quote ~~

The new EYFS says (in Framework document, dated May 2008)
"Providers must ensure that any animals on the premises are safe to be in the proximity of children and do not pose a health risk."

When I registered (many moons ago) we were given a form for parents to sign that they were happy with the arrangements for pets on the premises. At the bottom of the form it states that dogs must NEVER be left unattended with children. All my parents have signed to say they are happy with the way the hamster is kept in relation to the care of their children

JRs aren't always a problem. My parents have one and he's gentle. Not perhaps with some other dogs, but very gentle with people.

As long as the children and dog are kept apart for most of the time and only together under supervision, I'm sure all will be well.

I think the main problem here is communication from the cm. When dog arrived you should have been informed and reassured. You should have been shown policy and risk assessment, a proper discussion should have been had as this would have allowed you to naturally bring up any concerns you had without feeling you were nitpicking or the cm feeling on the defensive.

As she has not raised the issue you will have to.

I worked for a family with a jack Russell and can honestly say he was the most fantastic dog I have ever met. He was as soft as soft could be and probably the only dog I have ever trusted 100% with children. He was so gentle with the baby and they grew up the best of friends. He had such a lovely temperament and if people knew he'd sired a litter of pups we would have people offering stupid money to get one! However in my last job we had labs and I did not and would ever have trusted her with the children unsupervised. Also we had a helicopter land in the field to take a child to hospital that had been bitten by a lab in the village.

Your childminder sounds great and I'm sure she will do everything she can to make sure your DC and the puppy are safe. I'm sure the children will love having a puppy and can learn alsorts of good lessons from it.

as parent i will be worried too. im not confident around dog myself,so its personal attitude. i assume your cm know child care policy. but i know many people have big dogs that love children etc...

My family have had a couple of Jack Russells over the years and they do seem to be a very 'territorial' breed, we had a few nipping incidents when they felt their space was being invaded - even by people they knew. They are also very 'tenacious' when they play, lots of chewing and shaking. I would be worried about having a JR around kids.

i cant beleive how many cm just get a dog and dont talk about it with their parents first

Dh reminded me today that we were informed that CM was getting a dog (certainly not polled though) as it was her birthday present. She made certain preparations: all the mindees were given a little project about dogs before the puppy arrived and the dcs were told about the right way to treat dogs and how to take care of them.

I've asked dd1 (7) about how much contact they have with the dog and she's told me: they are allowed to pet her when she comes in from her walk and comes through the kitchen. The mindees use the kitchen which is attached to the playroom; in fact the kitchen is one of their main rooms and the dog's cage/basket is in the kitchen too. The dcs also pet the dog in the CM's arms when they are picked up from school. Dd2 and the other youngest child go with CM when she takes the dog for a walk during the day. The dog certainly doesn't go into the playroom though and I'm pretty sure she doesn't have the 'run' of the kitchen whilst the dcs are around.

I think I would like to see her policy about the safety of the dcs though. She's very recently had an Ofsted (either just before or during the time the puppy first came) and she still got Outstanding, and the inspector commented about how nice it was that the children were being told all about looking after dogs and puppies.

Just couldn;t bring myself to ask for the stuff today though... will try harder tomorrow. God why am I such a chicken?

tbh i can understand your concerns, but supervised access to dogs is good for the children and good for the dog. fwiw i have 2 jrs and they are fantastic BUT i would never leave dd unsupervised with them and we do invest a lot of effort into ensuring that we are the pack leaders and not them . our dogs were about 8yrs old when we had dd. its much easier to deal with when you have children first and then get a pet as the hierachy is already established.
btw you should not worry about asking your cm difficult questions i am sure she will be glad that you are intersted.

thanks hotbot, feel better about asking now. Tbh I really don't think she'd have considered this without thinking about the impact on the dcs; she loves them all to bits and is very proud of her Ofsted status.

I would give your childminder notice.

dothemonkey dance, why would you give notice? It isn't a statutory requirement to advise parents that you intend to add a pet to the setting, although I have a policy that states I will 'advise' parents (but not 'ask' permmission!). The welfare requirements of the EYFS which became statutory for cms from Sept 2008 state in the 'statutory guidance to which providers should have regard' (not a legal requirement!) that 'providers should ensure that any animals on the premises are safe to be in the proximity of children and do not pose a health risk' and, Oovavu, your childminder has done this. I'm sure she has weighed up all of the possible risks to the children in her care (and as she sounds so responsible, I'm sure she's already 'risk-assessed' her decision!).

My cat had kittens 4 weeks ago and the mindees are manic about watching them grow and develop - ok, they aren't JR pups, but having a young pet in the family means children have a chance to see growth and development 1st hand and can learn how to look after and care for young animals.

If you have concerns, speak to your cm - I advised all my parents when my kittens arrived and parents are happy for their children to have supervised access to them. Incidents that appear in the press are rare -your cm will be more than happy to reassure you!! At least if your child has access to a pet in cm's home, you won't feel the need to get one yourself!

I would'nt want a dog around my children, it is an individual choice. I would be happy with your kittens though as long as hygiene, supervision etc was in place!

still chickened out of asking this morning - what the hell is wrong with me?

I have a JR who has been brought up with my children. I got her while pg with dd1. The only 'problem' I had with her is when I was out of th room and my friend the dog had never met before went to pick up the baby.

I heard growling and screaming and ran in the room to find my friend balanced on top of my sofa and the dog guarding the baby.

She is incredibly protective of both my children and myself.

dd1 is now five and the dog learned from an early to steer clear of her. She has put up with being dressed in baby clothes, having dd1 attempt to pull of her head or tail to see what will happen, she has had attempts to ride her like a horse. She has not so much as bared her teeth at dd1.

dd2 is much more gentle with her and the dog often goes to her for a cuddle.

I trust my dog 100% but I do make a point of ensuring that no one she does not know are left alone with my children and that no strange children are left alone with her, incase she mistakes games for something else.

I have two dogs and for the dogs sake I make sure they are never unsupervised with the children. My own view is that if my dogs ever growled at the children or showed any territorial tendicies they would be kept away from the children at all times. I have recently taken on two children from different families who were so scared of dogs in general, when they heard mine bark they wouldnt come through the door. The children now help to groom and walk the dogs. The parents are so grateful that they don't have to buy pets as the children are getting all the fun and 'behaviour around animal awareness' from my setting. I keep one of the dogs upstairs as she is quite old now and very small, the other which is larger is kept in a pen in the kitchen, which has a gate across to prevent access. Once I did put the bigger dog upstairs to give me room to put an activity table in the kitchen, the children and parents missed him so much he has now been reinstated. I think personally children who have not been around pets and show fear or inappropriate behaviour (reaching out to pet a strange dog which is on or off its lead) when out and about are more likely to become targets of attack from any dog. I always inform parents if I add any pets to the setting. Like the other lady said there is no regulation that says I have to, however, I think it is good practice.

What are you frightened of which is causing you to not be able to talk to her about it?

I think that CM should discuss getting a dog with the parents as it does have an inpact on someone else in a way that other workers getting pets, doesn't.