Modern day slavery. Feminist dillema. AIBU?

[hohohoIdolikeTurkey]

I am looking for a full time live in nanny at the moment. I have been sent lots of CVs of Phillipino mothers with great references. They seem hard working, loving, caring and I'm sure would be excellent at the job. However, most of them have young children in the Phillipines - some preschool like mine.

I can't bring myself to employ someone to care for my children everyday when they won't see their little ones for months at a time.

I was thinking this over last night and realise that I am being utterly hypocritical on one level. I am going out to work full time partly to provide for my family but also because I am privileged enough to enjoy my work. I will also be privileged enough to spend a lot of time with my children.

If I found myself having to be sole breadwinner while Dh stayed at home I wouldn't hesitate - he would make a great SAHD. If I HAD to work abroad because that's the only way I could provide for my family I would go and be grateful that I have a dh who I could trust completely to do the right thing for the children back home.

Nevertheless I have asked the nanny agencies to screen out the ones with children. I would just find it so difficult knowing how much they have given up.

Do you have to employ someone from so far away? Surely even if they don't have small children they will still be away from their homes and families for months at a stretch, which might be very sad for them and TBH an added stress for you if you start fretting about their welfare.

Wouldn't it be better to employ someone from closer, preferably not someone who would be having to leave their children to look after yours.

But is it fair to judge people on their decisions about where they work?

It seems we are not offering enough money to attract British candidates (£300 per week net for 55 hours live in). We are probably going to go with a young eastern european or a childless Phillipino lady whose parents passed away recently and who has a boyfriend in UK.

Well, it's not about judging their choices or motives - and it's quite likely that the mums in the Phillipines have better extended family setups so their children may be very happy in the care of an aunt or granny for the duration.

It's just that if you feel uncomfortable in advance about what their circumstances are, it doesn't make it any easier from your point of view to be an employer.

Can't you turn it around?

Instead of looking at it that way look at it from this POV - these ladies have left their families to work and provide as best they can, if they are available for work then they are not achieving what they set out to do. They are still away from their family but not actually managing to provide. If you employ one of these ladies you will not only be (probably) getting an experienced and hard working nanny you will also be helping them to achieve their objective of providing the best possible life for their family.

I would think that was a good thing?

You're right that that is a better way to look at it. I suppose the other thing I ought to do is meet one or two of them and let them have their say.

Sounds fair!

there aren't any benefits in the Phillipines so those mums are stopping their families from starving. It is pretty awful and things should change.
Maybe pay a bit more or offer to fly them home for a holiday if you can afford it. It must be awful to leave your kids but mums do what they must.

£300 for 55 hours live in isn't too bad?

You might only get young nannies or unqualified with a bit of experience but it's not that unreasonable!

Have you tried cutting out the agencies and advertising yourself as agencies tend to inflate salaries a little (speaking as a nanny...)

I doubt someone from the Philopines would be granted a visa to enter the UK so they could gain employment.
As they have dependants, I feel the chances of them getting a visa are near nil.

They are already here but finishing contracts for various reasons. Many of them seem to have moved to UK with a family and then left to get UK pay.

Franklin - I have tried to advertise independently. I have had lots of rubbish responses. Then I interviewed a woman from slovakia who I got on really well with. She seems very organised and enthusiastic. She has 4 years exp inc 2yrs with 3 kids and the most glowing references ever. I have since gone with agencies to get a feel for the market so I know whether she is the right person for us. It seems we ca get someone with much more experience but now it's a question of whether I get on as well with the experienced ones.

Franklin - if you were an employer would you haggle with agency candidates over the wage then?

frannikin not franklin

Please be careful if you are looking at employing someone from outside of the EU. The immigration rules changed recently so please seek advice from the Uk Border Agency Employers Helpline: 0845 010 6677 (M-F 9-5) who can advise you as to how to check the applicants documents.

The women from Slovakia has a right to free movement and residence in the UK, so no immigration issues there.
From what you say about her already, she seems ideal - 4 years experience with glowing references, sounds good to me.

Thanks for that info NannyNick. I am interviewing the Phillipino tomorrow so I will get her view on the visa thing then phone to check it's kosher.

The slovakian does seem good. The only negatives are limited cooking skills and she is a self confessed fussy eater. However, I think we could treat the cooking thing as a challenge. If I manage it well I could teach her so that next time she applies for a job she can be confident about that aspect too.

I'm paying her for a day next week so we can check each other out.

She is not through an agency so I did wonder if there may be unforeseen problems - but I don't think so.

I'd say you probably could haggle over the wage.

Agencies, IME, when sending posts to nannies quote the top range the employer is willing to pay to make the post more attractive. I don't think it's unreasonable for you at interview to say you're offering X as a starting rate (maybe a little lower than you're willing to pay) and then negotiate. It seems to be an employers market in the UK at the moment.

As an example my agency (the one I got this job through) quote my "worth" on their site at 500net/week whereas I told them my minimum salary was 400net/week. They send me jobs paying 600net/week which when I go for interview say "we're starting at 450net but willing to go higher for an exceptional candidate", so yes, haggling happens. This is all overseas where negotiating is even trickier IME.

However your Slovakian sounds like a good bet IF you get on with her.

My SIL is from the Philippines.
When she was young she left school aged about 8 as there was no money for her to stay in school. Her family were very poor, lived in a shack, and washed their clothes in the river.

After divorcing her first husband, she got the opportunity to work for a Saudi family and took it, leaving her very small children behind to be looked after by her sister and parents.
From Saudi she came to Britain and then met and married my BIL, after they fell deeply in love with each other.
After my BIL death, we went out to the Philippines to represent his family at the funeral, as custom dictates and saw for ourselves what raw poverty she left behind.

My SIL has sent back money over the years and educated her children, and her nieces and nephews. Together she and my BIL, invested in rice and cereal crops, which in turn employed brothers and brothers in law. The extended family has a much bigger role over there.
Her eternal regret is that has had to leave her children, and missed so much. However her children are in a much better position in their lives educationally and economically because of her sacrifice. They were looked after and loved by members of her close family and seem well adjusted happy individuals. I was so impressed with how the money earned over here is spread throughout the family, for the good of the whole family.

Before our visit, I wondered how she could ever have left the lovely children, she has proudly shown me photos of over the years. Now I have been to the Philippines myself,
I cannot explain fully what high esteem I have for lovely SIL, now I have seen for myself, how she has moved her family from absolute poverty,to a place where they own property and helped her whole family to get on in life.

Phillipina - woman from Phillipines
Phillipino - man from Phillipines

ilovemydog - sorry

julienoshoes - that is a very touching story. Really I am being v selfish because I don't want to be reminded of what I was perceiving as neglected children. Actually they are not neglected. It is a stark reminder of how lucky we are and how much we take for granted.

Frannikin - that is incredibly helpful - thanks.

Oh don't worry - I am one of these freaks who write into BBC Feedback to complain about the use of refendum/referenda.

But how is it a feminist dillema - I always thought feminism was the ability to choose? And if you are screening for women who have children, then aren't you being the one who is discriminating?

Exactly. I feel like a complete hypocrite. On the one hand I want to work full time to provide for my family on the other I have issues about these women doing the same. I would be livid if an employer wouldn't interview me for a job because they didn't like my childcare arrangements.

Why is it hypocritical? You would be concerned about the family left behind.

But if you didn't employ this person, would the next employer be as concerned about the well being of the family? Um, probably not.

You could find out what would be important for the family. Visits? Moving to the UK?

Perhaps you could research this out and provide information once you have decided.

Filipino nannies/au pairs are illegal in Norway, for this reason. The leave their homeland to look for work, they dont realize that the salary they are going to earn is a pittance in european terms, but large in filipion terms, and therefore there is neither enough money to send a substantial amount home each month, neither is it feasible for them to save to get a ticket home.

Meanwhile, without a mother to look after the kids, and a father who is working, the children are usually pawned off on any relative that can have them short term, or they are sent to child labour.

It is not really better for a filipino family to have the mother abroad earning shit nothing.

Ask her: How many times has she been home to see her family since she left? Does she miss her own children?

Ask yourself: Do you want a filipino nanny because she is cheap and you get bargain childcare from a lovely and maternal mum?

Qs it's not really like that in this case. We are offering £15,000 net a year with living expenses covered - so there is plenty for tickets home and saving.

I know the phillipino government is trying to make it harder for their people to work abroad. I am no economist but I do wonder if their country is in a vicious circle. If your educated women leave to work abroad because they can't get decent jobs in the phillipines they then bring back a lot of foreign money into the country with which they make educating their children a priority. The children the leave once they are educated. Is the result that the priced in the country keep going up esp for education? Therefore at a government level it would make sense to stop people leaving? However, on an individual level it would still be better to employ here someone who can't get work at home.

We do want a caring maternal nanny and yes money is an issue. However I think we are offering a fair wage but so far only phillipino and eastern european women have shown an interest.

You do seem to offer a fair wage, and you do seem to know a little about the situation.
In which case, the nanny in question may find it a very lucky break with you, if she indeed can get holiday and save up some money.

A friend of mine "rescued" a filipino nanny out of Dubai. She was with an extremely wealthy family, but had no salary. She came to be with this family because she applied for a nanny job, the dubaii family paid her ticket to come work for them, and then she as kept as an unpaid slave with only a floor to sleep on and one meal per day. My friend got her to London, and set her up as a live out nanny with her flat paid for and a salary.

I think you find the same problem in many other countries too.

My husband is getting to know quite a few of the immigrants (through his language course) in town, and there are people with university education from Sudan, Zimbabwe, etc, who has left their homeland due to lack of work for educated people, and come here, and find that their qualifications are worth next to nothing as their univiersities are not recognised. I see the problem, I cant see the solution.