Childminder being unreasonable

[kalsm]

Hi

I am a newbee so be gentle please...

My son is coming up to four and started a new childminder, well i say childminder it's more of a childminding business as they employ staff to look after the children. When we originally went to see them and agreed to send our son we filled out the usual contact forms and signed for permission to give emergency medical treatment.
The man said that we would sort out the proper contact later. We then went on holiday and our son started after this week. No contract with terms and conditions was given for us to sign..

When asked if there was anything we would like to add about our son we told them that he was potty but was struggling a little with a few accidents a day. They said no problem.

Skip forward a few months later many many discussions regarding this, all very negative from the childminders from he's not ready, to, he's incontinent! and weeing and pooing all over the place and toys!! To you either put him in pull ups or we terminate your 'contract'.

They even suggested I see our Health Visitor imply that he had a medical problem. I though ok and saw my HV, she said perfectly normal and some children especially boys take longer to potty train, she also added that because he only goes there 3 days a week and for the other four doesnt wear pull-ups/need then, that he would be very confused and adviced against this.

He husband too our son on friday morning and said this and they say fine your choice we will have a letter of termination by teatime and by the way while hes here we are going to put him pull-ups. My husband had no other option but leave our son as he had to go to work.(if it would have been me i would have told them were to stick it and taken him away)

We have now received a letter telling us we owe them 4 weeks money for our notice period. Plus 2 weeks money for his settling in period. No money was ever mentioned or asked for this period and now suddenly they have produced an overdue invoice.

They want a considerable amount of money for in my eyes nothing, they have made it totally impossible for us to send him for the notice period stated in the 'contract' which remember we never signed!! I have also had to have time off to try and sort out new childcare for our son and also pay the new place i have found.

i am stressed out and totally confused as to how we stand over all of this. it seems to have been a nightmare from start to finish and i just want it to be over with.

Any advice from some people in the know would be very very much appreciated.

Ps so sorry the mega long post but i felt good to get it off my chest.

You poor thing - what a nightmare.

I have no advice I'm afriad, but hopefully the bump will get someone who can help

you haven't signed anything though, so how can they hold you to it? How about CAB?

Hi thanks for that.

I have been to see a solicitor (free 1/2 Hour) and she says without a contract they have nothing.

But when my husband rang the other to try and get a copy of what we did sign, ie the contact form, the guy was really rude. He called our son by his last name and couldnt remember his first and said i hope your going to pay by friday or we will be going to our solicitor.

its just so upsetting.

Wanted some advice of waht i should say next.

bloody cheek - I would say, "see you in court then" myself and take my chances. Very glad your son is somewhere else. They sound horrible.

sounds very stressful.

Piss off is what i'd say next.

Certainly is the funny thing is when we went to visit they said all the right things and have great ofsted report (outstanding), they have only been open just over 12 months.

We though great sounds perfect but in reality it was all talk, they dont want to provide me with type of childcare they wanted for their children when they were younger as in their opening talk. im sure if the people looking after their children had said you must do it all our way it doesnt matter what you think or believe or get out, they would have been fuming.

poor you and poor little boy
they sound horrible, i would - when this is sorted out - report them to the local authority, who often keep a database on these things, or to ofsted
imo if a childminder cannot cope with supporting a child appropriately through potty training issues, then they are in the wrong job.

they can't do anything

let them do whatever they want

unless they can provide you with a contract that states you agree to them dictating potty training requirements and will pay if they terminate the contract then you don't even need a solicitor

so all you'll have to deal with is their anger

which shouldn't bother you really

twiglett - you came back! marvellous

Had a similar issue over contracts with a nursery a few years ago, at the time it was start up so no contracts but manager was very nice and we were happy. Move on 18 months and there is a new manager and our circumstances change and we wanted to remove DCs. Similar thing happened new manager rude to the point of abusive, claiming penalty fees and refusing to return £50 security deposit. We just stood firm, did not resort to abuse or threats, but just reiterated our point (again and again), in the end no fees and we did get our £50 back.

Things to do:

1. Don't get stressed, they have nothing on you, the solicitor thing is either a bluff that you can laugh at, or a waste of their money that you can laugh at even more.

2. consider reporting them to Ofsted, however if you are going to do this, don't threaten them with it or it looks like tit for tat, just do it and only if you have genuine concerns about the professionalism of the childcare .

Yes, no contract means that they cannot pursue you for any debt they say you owe.

They can threaten and bluster, but no contract no dice.

I think you are well rid quite frankly they sond horrid.

Good luck with finding alternative childcare.

Thanks all so much

its so nice to talk about it and get advice.

I will get typing my letter then to tell them to sod off lol They have already been paid for this week and not had my son so they got some money anway.

I did ring ofsten but because its about potty training and they dont get involved as its not clear cut how it should be handled.

I will be wring a formal letter to ofsted and telling them i want it pinned to the childminders file.

Your letter should simply say

"With regards to your demands for further fees following your termination of my child's childcare agreement we look forward to receiving a copy of the signed contract.

Yours sincerely"

no more or you'll get tangled up

HTH

As long as your up to date with payments, if they have not given you a contract to sign than they cant demand anything off you.

Remain professional and try not to go off in a rage (which is so easy to do) and supports there case if it does go to court that you was not being reasonable etc.
Just ask them for a copy of the contract (if you haven;t signed it than they dont have one) put it all in writing to them as well and ask for a reply in writing.

I will say this though, and it is in no deffence of the provision so dont take it the wrong way. But if your son is almost four and still not clean and having accidents everywhere including messing over toys, for health and safety of the other children, pull ups probably do make sense for your son.

Whether a parent allows there child to mess all over the home is one thing in the name of (development and progress) but to allow a child to do this in someone elses home and around other children is not practical.

Or it could be a case of them not sending your son to toilet enough (which is somewhat neglecting his needs)... especially if they are aware of his tendancies to have little accidents.

Good luck.

Hi

I didnt say that my son was messing all over the place, they said it. He does perfectly fine the other 4 days of the week.

Heres an example of how the blow things out of all proportion. My son had a tiny wee on a car mat that they have. Instead of just cleaning it with sopy water and disinfectant as all normal people would. they made a massive deal pulling it up and sticking it outside in the rain!! And then saying he had ruined it, im sorry but leaving it out in the rain all week is what ruined it not one wee from my son.

I always find potty training a sensitive issue. Sometimes they're dry and clean with me, but not at home and sometimes the other way round. Often the parents and I can work together to find solutions. Sometimes I do have to put my foot down a bit, for the health, safety and care of the other children - but rarely - and never without the parent's agreement. It does not sound like your childminder is treating you as a 'partner', which is something we are required to do.

as no contract, you have a lucky escape ans shouldnt need to pay anything

The whole thing sounds very odd. Are they definatly all registered? Is it in somebody's house? I would be realt tempted to take this further to make sure this doesn't happen again to somebody else.

Definatly don't stress about it, without a contract they can't demand anything.

...hi.. when i said, ''Whether a parent allows there child to mess all over the home'' i was talking more general than with your son in particular. Some parents allow there children to run around at home and except that if there child wets or messes the carpet its ok, where as for a childminder, this is a place where we are responsible for other peoples children as well as our home.

We had a little boy who at the time was 2 who refused to use the potty and screamed in paddy when we told him to use the toilet.. In every other aspect he was perfect with us but very troublesome for his parents.

Mum was coming of a evening telling me he dosen;t do it at home his clean, and the dady dropping him off in the morning telling me that he wee's on there bed and hides in the corner and messes in his pants, and finds it funny.

As a childminder i cannot allow the child to do that. However at the same time, if i had a child whos just being potty trained and occasioanlly has accidents (considering the child dosen't mind using the toilet/potty) id simply send them reguarly.
However if continuously there is no progress on this,( and im talking the child STILL wets several times a day) i would have to ask the parent to consider pull ups.

Nursery schools will not allow children who are not clean (toilet trained) enter there care for health and hygeiene reasons and have seen children rejected from nursery for this too.

What an awful situation They sound awful, you are well rid of them! Good luck

Nursery schools will not allow children who are not clean (toilet trained) enter there care for health and hygeiene reasons and have seen children rejected from nursery for this too.

That isn't correct any more under the terms of the disabled discrimination act.

My son wasn't toilet trqianed until he was turned 4 and it was no problem. Nursery suggested I ditch pull ups as they were confusing him.

I wouldn't have thought nursy schools can do that. It is discrimination. The school nursery I worked at had a child who soiled his pants every day which wasn't nice but he had SEN and nobody made a fuss.

Also, I have worked in a reception class in the same school who had a irl who constantly wet herself but again we just delt with it.

If he has more accidents with CM than at home I would be wondering why that is - does he seem happy there?

I just had a thread about the opposite situation - where my CM is helping in potty training my 3.5 yr-old and we are struggling to keep pace at home as she refuses to sit for us (and I feel under a lot of criticism over this - truly is a hot topic). We have just ditched pull-ups completely and CM has never complained about the accidents - I just send a lot of extra clothes! In fact she copes a lot better than I do. There is no way she would suggest putting dd back into pull-ups knowing she must be trained for school.

They sound absolutely horrible and it is probably for the best that you have been forced to terminate.

i can't believe how you are being treated.

i'm a childminder and i have had parents leave without giving notice. it is going to court but only after several letters and sending all signed paperwork off to the solicitors.

The nursery can't do anything as you have never signed anything. the solicitors will just 'laugh' (grin) at the nursery.

As for potty training, the nursery should work with you and talk to you - not just tell you. your poor son too, he is at the age to realise what the staff are saying and must have been very embarrassed infront of the other children when they said things.

you have definately done the right thing taking him out.

Good Luck x

One thing I forgot to say - at the end of this when you win without the involvement of solicitors (my prediction) you will get a letter along the lines of: following our recent correspondance we have decided as a measure of goodwill to waive the fees due.

i.e. you know you were right, they know you were right, but they won't have the good grace to admit it. Laugh at their insecurities don't let it wind you up.