Please help with nanny holiday calculation

[ImperfectClematis]

My understanding is:

• Current legal min is 20 days + 4 bank holidays, ie 24 days in total.

• If "24 days inc BHs" is in the contract, all public holidays have to be taken from this 24 days. eg You don't get paid Christmas leave in addition to the 24 days.

• So if one works full time, and takes all of the 8 public holidays, you have 24-8=16 paid holidays left.

• If you work 2 days a week, on Mondays & Fridays, then your holiday entitlement is reduced to 2/5 of 24 days, ie 9.6 days. If you then want to take all of the public holidays that fall on Mondays or Fridays (of which there are 6 in 2008), then you have to use your hols to cover for that - ie 9.6-6=3.6 left.

• If you work say 2 days a week on Tues & Wed, then your hol entitlement is also 9.6 days. If you then take a public holiday off that falls on a Tues or Wed (one in 2008), you have to use your hols to cover for that. You wouldn't work on the public hols that fall on Mon or Fri, and wouldn't be paid for those either.

Is this correct?

And also, are paid holidays of more than 24 days the norm these days? Seems like I am expected to give 20 days holidays plus 8 days BHs.

I think most nannies get far more holidays than the statutory minimum. The norm ime, is either 4 or 5 paid weeks, plus all bank holidays paid for.

If you work 2 days per week, then you still get 4 or 5 weeks holidays a year so 8 or 10 days, plus any bank holidays that fall on your normal working days.

We also give 3 extra days at Christmas on a discretionary basis (as we almost never work these days).

You can of course choose to offer the minimum allowances, but you will probably struggle to find someone to work for you.

From 1 April 2009, the holiday entitlement goes up to 28 days (which can include BHs), thus why you are seeing 20+8 being mentioned. More info on Holiday Entitlement
FAQ about Holiday Entitlement is helpful for some queries, such as what happens with part-time staff who don't work on days that bank holidays fall (currently: pro-rata 4.8 weeks, based on hours they work per week).

If someone works full-time, and in the past has been paid for all bank holidays, then I don't think there is any change. They would still get 4 weeks paid holiday plus the bank holidays, thus they get 20 days plus bank holidays.

Is there a particular scenario you are wanting advice on? For example, are you looking at having a part-time nanny who is working say Tue,Wed,Thus?

Very generally, you will probably find it easiest to offer 4 weeks paid holidays (so 20 days, pro-rata if part-time) plus bank holidays which fall on usual working days. Unless of course you need someone to work a bank holiday - but finding someone to work those may be hard.

Soapbox - that's interesting. That wasn't the impression I got when I was drawing up the contract for my nanny. Ignorance... I was hoping they would read and comment on the holiday clause then, but they chose not to read it, and then complain bitterly months on. Oh well.

Nannynick - thanks for the info - I think then that my calculation above must be correct.

Yes, I think you are correct, though if doing 24-8, I'd suggest changing that at some point prior to April 2009, to 28-8.

Ah - I see - this is a 'discussion' with your current nanny over holidays?

Is it really worth falling out with her over a couple of days more paid holidays? I suppose it depends on what she is like overall.

As a nanny I have always taken bank holidays off work and been paid for them. I wouldnt accept a job which didnt pay these as I am sure you wouldnt either.

Hope you get it sorted out with your nanny soon!

Jenna.

What did the contract actually say? 24 days including BHs?

Did your nanny perhaps interpret that as meaning 4 weeks holiday plus bank holidays?

Is it those 4 bank holidays that your nanny is moaning about? Or is it something else?

Soapbox - no not really worth it. Would have been happy to increase it to 28 + 8 days if they insisted. It was just never raised.

JennaJ - Maybe I wouldn't, but they did. And I gave them at the outset a 2 page essay setting out the holiday situation.

Nannynick - would you be willing to email me some advice?

Send me an e-mail, see my profile.

You could CAT (Contact Another Talker) me, but I'm not sure how quickly Mumsnet will process that, given it's a Bank Holiday.

Thanks, have emailed you. Sorry it will be long!

When you say that you would have agreed to 20+8, is there any reason why you could not agree with your nanny to increase holiday entitlement to that, from now on (possibly backdate it to their start-date, if they have only been with you a few months).

Is this the only issue you are having with your employee, or are there other things? Could this issue be enough to rock the boat sufficiently for your nanny to leave, or for you to dismiss her (I am assuming your nanny is female, not that many male nannies around).

Our nanny gets 20 days hols plus bank holidays. I used to only offer 20 days including the bank hols. So I can assure you that there are plenty of nannies out there willing to accept this.

I find it very difficult impossible really to offer the nanny all of the holidays I am offered because I need some holidays to cover kids' doctor appointments, school activities, and nnay sick days. But. now that my holiday entitlement has gone up to 5 weeks, I can now offer the nanny 4 weeks plus paid bank holidays.

I do think the norm on mumsnet is 20 days hols plus paid bank hols.

Thanks for that comment. If I knew that then, I'd have offered that too.

I just thought that I'd offer the minimum and negotiate if necessary. I didn't think that the nanny would accept it silently and resentfully, and then explode. Anyway that's going off the topic...

Back to the title topic, I find calculation of bank hols is quite complex for part time working. For instance, in 2008 there are 4 BH Mondays, 2 Fridays, 1 Tues and 1 Thurs. So if you just do "20 days plus paid leave on any BH that you would have worked" then it makes a huge difference whether you work Mon+Thurs+Fri= 7 BHs off, or Tues+Wed+Thurs= 1 BHs off.

I didn't think it was fair that one should be penalised for the particular days of the week they worked, so I tried to smooth out this discrepancy by stating that the holiday entitlement is inclusive of BHs that they would need to take, such that the total number of days off would be the same regardless of the days you worked. But it seems that the nanny wasn't interested in any of this.

I think they would have been happier with "20 days + any BH that they would have worked under normal contract hours", even though it would have meant fewer holidays. I've learnt my lesson.

Sorry, Tues+Wed+Thurs= 2 BHs

I am currently working PT (although not as a nanny). Public holidays are taken on a pro rata basis - i.e. I work 20 hrs a week, so I am entitled to take 4 public holidays off. It is immaterial when the public holiday falls - ie a scheduled working day or not. If I worked on a Monday, and wanted to take them all off, I would need to use my leave allowance to make up the shortfall. I don't actually work on Mondays, but I am able to carry the days and take them off another time. Otherwise you would end up with everyone wanting to work on Mondays!

Also, my understanding is that if there is a fraction of a day (e.g. 9.6), it is always rounded up. I don't know if that is law, or just standard practice.

Yes, I rounded mine up too for my nanny.

My experience at work (I also work PT) has been the same, you end up with the same number of days off regardless of the days of the week that you work. I think though that there is a lot of misunderstanding about it and i've come across some people who say that they prefer to work on Mondays and Fridays for this reason.

Part-Days need not be rounded up to a full day. There are other possible methods, such as coming in late/finishing early. see Holiday and Holiday Pay leaflet from ACAS