Does everyone think childcare should be paid for?

[Cococomellon]

I have seen a lot of posts in social media about the cost of childcare, that it should be free and all the reasons in favour of that such as allowing both parents to work and the impact on the economy.

I can see how this would be a benefit. I have a young child and pay for childcare but I planned for this and it is not a surprise to me.

Who pays for this "free" childcare? Is there spare money the government has squirrelled somewhere? Should we all pay more taxes? Will the nhs get even less funding? Schools?

Perhaps I am just very right wing as I don't see to see the counter- arguments but I'm sure many people (some who don't have children) don't want to pay for others children to go to nursery?

We're agreeing with each other. It is offensive. It is offensive to rip into, let's face it women, for having children.

It is offensive to rip into, again women for not having children/being unable to have children.

Too often discussion around reproduction ends up being about individuals being irresponsible or selfish.

With childcare often it's why do you have these kids if you can't support them? Circumstances can change.

I'm sure I don't need to tell you there's a lot of wringing of hands about women not having children too. Who will look after us when we're old? Who will pay the pensions.

I'm sorry for you losses and my point wasn't an attack on any individual - quite the opposite.

The thing is that childcare is so, so expensive. I agree with not having children if you can’t afford them, but childcare shouldn’t be the limiting factor in that. I’m lucky that we can afford it, but it is a huge chunk out of our income each month and we have a relatively high household income. The bar is set too high, people with average household incomes really struggle and it shouldn’t be that way. It’s over £1200 per month for a full time place where I live, that’s a huge amount more than a lot of peoples mortgage payments. At the same time childcare providers deserve decent salaries. So it has to be subsidised more than it currently is.

@Overthebow this is it. My husband earns a good salary but it's still not enough to stretch to childcare. It should be, and a few years ago it probably would have been, but in today's world it just isn't, and no amount of people telling me we earn above average income (which is true) will magically make it cover the cost of childcare for 2 children.

Well, for a start I don't think it should be entirely free, as someone else said earlier, people don't value things that are completely free. The fees should be proportional to income up to a reasonable maximum, that would then cost less than entirely free childcare but still make it affordable to all. But the childcare providers have to be funded adequately, that means more tax money going towards childcare provision (doesn't necessarily mean more taxes need to be paid, could mean that tax money is diverted from elsewhere, for instance being spent on politicians mates' dodgy schemes). It would be cheaper to have council run nurseries than paying private nurseries, quality would also be easier to control that way.

It is interesting that views appear to be split but no one expresses these views openly in the spheres I am in. It is an unpopular opinion to say you don't want to pay more taxes so everyone else can have more free childcare or to answer "Great! But how?" To everyone posting online about free childcare.

OP
The problem in our country is a lot of the population seem to want Nordic style public services, but US Republican levels of taxation.

There's also the fact that the rich and powerful are able to structure contracts and services to enrich their friends whilst telling average citizens to blame immigrants/single parents/low income families/people with disabilities. Unfortunately a lot of our country swallow this hook, line and sinker as well.

If we had less corruption in our country and there was political will, we could fund many things better. But we don't, because the government need to pay their paymasters and expect taxpayers to fund everything from their meals at work to their horse's central heating.

Im not quite sure why you used my post, as you didnt really acknowledge any of the points in it.

Well, for a start I don't think it should be entirely free

Neither do I. The duscussion i was having lead from it being free paying for itself and improving our economy.

someone else said earlier, people don't value things that are completely free

I disagree with that. People who can not afford to eat, appreciate food being given to them, but what they really want is a fare crack of the whip to earn it themselves, not have 2 adults working full time and a government that still allow them to need food banks.

The fees should be proportional to income up to a reasonable maximum, that would then cost less than entirely free childcare but still make it affordable to all

But what is that amount? . Who makes that decision because in a means tested system there are always those who fall marginally below who are in the left behind.
How would you gauge that?

But the childcare providers have to be funded adequately, that means more tax money going towards childcare provision (doesn't necessarily mean more taxes need to be paid, could mean that tax money is diverted from elsewhere, for instance being spent on politicians mates' dodgy schemes)

We currently have an underfunded NHS, undefunded police service, underfunded education system etc. We don't have taxes to divert anywhere currently, where would you divert them from and we are talking about the now not after we develop into a better country with a government that actually wants to invest in its people.

It would be cheaper to have council run nurseries than paying private nurseries, quality would also be easier to control that way

Again, im not sure that's true. Im not sure that because it's managed by local council, the "quality" is better, just look at our education system, we have some of the best, passionate and dedicated teachers in our state schools but due to our current funding situation and conditions in school passed from government/council the school system is breaking down. (Broken)

I couldn't agree more with this. Very well said.

They use a sliding scale for fees in my country and it seems to work ok, its proportional so there shouldn't be anyone that is left behind, no one is paying too big a proportion of their income.
I think this whole discussion requires a country with a better government than the UK currently has, so yes its a bit pie in the sky but the idea is that taxes aren't spent on frivolous things or wasted in corrupt schemes but are spent appropriately in all the areas they are needed including properly funding the NHS etc.
In an ideal country taxes would properly fund childcare too, and that would help everyone because more people would be able to work and pay taxes helping fund it, less women would be stuck in bad/abusive/unhappy relationships because they can't afford to leave as they gave up working because they couldn't afford childcare, and more children would start school on an equal footing, ready to learn and thrive.
As to the last point, the council run nurseries in my country are run well, certainly better than some private ones which tend to get in the news for negative reasons, and everyone is guaranteed a spot somewhere, you don't have to worry about not finding a daycare place. The UK could do this too, if people stop voting in terrible governments.

I don’t think either party is suggesting free childcare though.

At the very least it should be fully tax deductible. Enable parents to work by removing barriers to entering the workplace. As a single parent, I hate being a higher rate tax payer without any consideration for the increased costs I incur to be able to work.

we lived and worked on a country with a sliding scale fees for nursery and as my husband is a high earner but I was working as a teacher I found it unfair as we would have had to pay the top fees which were more than my salary but my friend could put her kid in for £10 a day and did it just so she could do nothing. I ended up staying at home as it just didn’t make sense for me to work. Used to really annoy me watching her take her kid there and then tell me how she’s just watching TV at home. So I think a sliding scale should also take into account the woman’s salary as it’s usually her who would be giving up work.

Why didn't your husband pay as he was the high earner? They take into account the entire household income because the assumption is couples share their income, not keep them entirely separate, or at least share the bills so higher income pays higher proportion of bills.

But if 10 quid a day was the 'cheap' end of the fees then the fees weren't very subsidised where you lived so don't blame you for not wanting to pay and keeping your child home. 10 quid a day would be about the maximum fee where I am, the most I ever had to pay was around 150 euros a month for my DD but that was paid for me because nursery was deemed essential for her behaviour issues.

I was just wondering how long the day that is costing £10?
Isn't that less than an hours work for a full days childcare?

But yes @LongStoryShorty thats exactly the problem with means tested or sliding scale systems.

Why did your husband refuse to pay for his child to attend nursery?

Oh and it is very common in the UK for women to work for nothing after childcare costs. I had SILs who did so. However it allowed them to keep hold off and develop their careers.

Only problem with 'low cost childcare' is that it's not 'high quality Early Years education' which is what children need. The funding rate should be around 8.50 per hour based on the amount NMW has increased. Instead it's around £4.50 and the LA takes a slice for 'admin'. I think a subsidy is sensible. It would keep a wide range of choice for families (a village hall is cheaper to run than other types of settings). It would give access to more expensive settings to a wider group of people and it would not be a race to the bottom of settings trying to make ends meet for nurseries. Which inevitably impacts quality.

Yep!

The trouble with this is that it's not funded properly so nurseries have to cross-subsidise by charging paying parents (usually those with under twos) a fortune. OR offering an eye-wateringly expensive lunch to 'make up' the missing money. If it was subsidised everyone would be a lot clearer as to what is available.

I think anything that's deemed 'free' somehow loses its value to the user. A lot of parents would be more invested in their child's school if they had to contribute something. Better for schools too who are really struggling. In France kids have to bring all books and stationary. Everything.

The trouble with this is that the really amazing settings have to charge more because they cost more. A setting employing mostly graduates in a beautiful well planned environment SHOULD cost more than a village hall setting with a few level threes and unqualified staff. This is the issue with calling Early Childhood Education 'childcare' and one of the reasons good staff are leaving. So undervalued.

THIS! I wish that more people understood this!

I wish everyone understood this!

It’s already heavily subsidised for the lower paid through free hours and universal credit. I don’t feel like the taxpayer should pay for childcare for higher earners, but I also don’t think the taxpayer should pay for middle class kids to go to university. And I think middle class pensioners should pay for their own social care through a massive hike in inheritance tax, rather than the burden falling on general taxation.

It’s very heavily subsidised for low income families yes, but there’s little help for middle income families and it’s just not affordable. We have relatively high income at just over £90k and we can afford it but it is still a significant amount for us each month. If we wasn’t £30k less we wouldn’t be able to afford it. We’re in an expensive area so mortgages/rent is high. The middle income group is often forgotten about.