30 Free Hours but still being asked to pay, is that right?

[EsouthA]

Hi,

I wondered if anyone could help me with the below.

My daughter will start her 30 free hours in September which we have decided to stretch the whole year so works out at 21.9 hours per week.

When applying to her nursery (Busy Bees) we added on one extra morning to make it 20 hours per week. So this we were expecting to be fully covered by the 30 free hours allowance (21.9 hours) however they have come back with this fee sheet which basically broken down means we have to pay a certain amount towards funded hours and also we have to pay for non funded hours which really we shouldn’t have but apparently they are saying we do.
has anyone else experienced this?

With baby no.2 due in October we were hoping in the 30 free hours covering the childcare costs but now we’re looking to reduce my daughters hours so not to pay too much which we just don’t have.

Any advice/experience much appreciated.

Thanks in advance x

@RedWingBoots nope, I wouldn’t. I don’t take babies under 2, at the moment, so no smaller ones. Luckily, the 2 older ones in nappies are the same size! It may not always work this way I realise that! It’s lovely and easy at the moment, though!

parents seem to appreciate the convenience too.

uhm maybe OP you wish to start a new thread about baby names?

anyway…:

regarding your original post here you’ve discovered that it is not 30 “free” hours. It’s 30 “funded” hours. Which means each child gets funding of a few pounds per hour for 30 hours. This isn’t what it costs per hour for the nursery so - you pay the difference.

There should be a bit more honesty about it. I’ve heard lots of people saying on here they plan to go back to work etc when they get their free hours. The discount helps but for a lot of settings the bill is still pretty big.

I think this is true - and I wish nurseries were allowed to just straight-up apply it as a discount rather than to fanny around pretending it only applies to certain hours or whatever else so that they can pretend there are free hours. It's misleading and leads people to blame the nursery and think the nursery is conning them rather than see that it's the result of inadequate funding.

I do think in general women are sold a lie that it'll be so much easier to go back if they wait - for the 30 hours, which as you say might not be all they're hoping for, or for school. I see loads of threads where the mothers of babies are told that they should wait until their children are at school, and then loads where the mothers of children starting school are told (not without reason) that it's actually harder to juggle work then than it is in nursery years. The truth for most women is that their best shot at keeping their income level and getting some degree of flexibility is to go back after mat leave and make a flexible working request - much more likely to be successful then when starting in a new job - but for some reason people tell women not to do that in favour of a mythical future point where it'll be so much easier to work.

Echoing this so strongly.

Children going to school doesn't magically wave away childcare issues - in fact it introduces significantly more disruptions than childcare because school hours are 9-3 (how many jobs exist to cope with those timings?) - and involves an array of half-terms, holidays, inset days to sort. School introduces complexity into the working day rather than taking it away.

Same for the 30 hours - these are by no means "free" and doesn't smoothly allow for a new job to sought, caught and kept.

The best route I have found - through experience - is to make plans to return to one's job after a designated period of maternity leave (whatever that period may be) - and keep on at it, not interrupt progression - and hopefully build capital, experience and the confidence to ask for flexible working, or make changes as and when needed as children grow up. But - these arbitrary wands that are sometimes waved at parents "wait till 30 hours" or "wait till they are in school" - do not help - as those points in life are notoriously difficult to try to find a suitable job/career and argue for flexibility in it.

However this isn't really the topic for the OP - so yes, more clarity about the funded hours would help (like let it be said, on the gov wesbite, on setting websites - that you'll stil have to pay a fee, over and again, till it becomes common knowledge)

It also needs to be clearer that nursery funding (whether 15 or 30hrs) is for term time only so essentially the provision is funding for school hours during school terms. Anything on either side is additional. Many who think they can return after they get funding have this assumption that it is all year round because the nursery is open as such.

Completely agree that working is SO much harder once they start school than when younger. Wraparound care is much harder to come by and I find they also need us more once they are at school compared to nursery.

DuarPorte I completely agree. I’m now at a point where I’ve nearly survived the nursery years (one more year to go) and while it’s been tough in lots of ways, I’m finding school logistics much harder for my eldest than the nursery runs etc for my youngest.

if I was in charge I’d heavily subsidise childcare to give more families options about staying in the workplace. That’s not to say I don’t value the role of a sahm but it is a very different prospect doing it because you want to versus doing it because childcare is too expensive.

Hi all,

Question on the back of this, using our 30 hours split over the 52 weeks of the year. Kids 4 now & will start big school in September. Current private nursery suggesting our hours will cease before the 6 weeks holidays. Doesn’t sound right góceme we’ve split it over the 52 weeks. Happy to be told otherwise, but I don’t trust my nursery’s financial department.

Thanks in advance for any feedback 😊

@DJCDJCDJC I would contact your local authority Early Years department and ask. My local authority has the current funding period as 1st April to 31st August. As you have a 52 week agreement, I can't see why you would not get funded care in August.

Sounds about right. As others have said it is 30 funded hours, rather than free hours and only applies term time rather than 52 weeks in a year.
I split the hours over 52 weeks in a year so I got 21 hours funded for.. 12pm - 6pm was funded for (18 hours, 3 times a week) and 8am-12 (4 hours funded for). Total of 21 hours funded for. I paid for 8-12 three times a week. 12 hours. This came to around £490 per month, was a little less than that but prices went up April 2022. Hope that makes a little sense, as hard to explain.. I previously thought it was 30 free hours in the past aswell. They should provide a form explaining costings to you when you visit the preschool.

Appreciate that. Kinda what I was thinking. And I just today reconfirmed on gov.uk, so they'll have my up to date 'code'. Imagining they'd be able to potentially claim for my hours without actually attending.

I'll get in touch with the council tomorrow 👍🏽

The summer term is so long, you've probably used up all your hours before the end of August. It isn't just a blanket 'free until they go to school', each term is a fixed set number of hours paid for, regardless if you stretch or not.

So the summer term might be 12 weeks x 30 hours = 360 hours .

IF you're using 20 hours each week, you'll run out after 18 weeks.

Funding runs April to April so as schools are term time only they must have enough funding left to cover the term time between September and next April the best way to clarify how much funding your due is to contact your L A ....September to April 1st is about 750 hours in term time which leaves you about 390 from April 22 to September 1st ....16.25 hours a week.

I sympathise OP it is quite crap. The system is too complicated, but yes it’s funded hours not free hours.

my DC only got 15 hours and the local nursery didn’t offer it, it had to be the school nursery, which meant I had childcare from 12.30-3.30 Monday to Friday only, which meant I had to pay a childminder for a full time place as they couldn’t get another child in just for the morning and they had to do drop off to school nursery and pick up for school nursery. So the funded hours made no difference at all other than giving everyone a headache.

other things to watch out for - having a dc born in the first week of any term meaning you don’t get funding until the stat of the next (unless that’s changed) meaning your DC’s friend five days older than them gets to start the school nursery four months earlier.

AND the last thing to watch out for which caught me out - staggered school starting. I booked the childminder up to the date the school opened, something like the 4th September, booked a day off to be there on my dc first day. No. Get a letter saying my dc will be starting on the 28th September or some date three weeks on due to staggering school starts so the dc don’t get overwhelmed, nervous kids in first when it’s quiet. Mine was due to start on the last possible day and suddenly I had three extra weeks of childcare to magic up.

Some great advice on here. Can I jump on and ask for more please? Currently in the part time working mum/ nursery phase of life and feeling so burnt out and considering workplace options.

Does anyone have any more advice on how things will look different when primary school starts? Someone said:

I find they also need us more once they are at school compared to nursery.

What does that look like in practice please?

DD's nursery is open 51 weeks per year and the one week they have off is paid I think. The government 30 hours funding is term time only and only pays out 38 weeks per year. Many private nurseries that are open more than 38 weeks per year spread the funding across the whole year, which means it works out fewer hours per week.

So 30 hours x 38 weeks = 1140 hours per year funded childcare

Those 1140 hours divided by 52 weeks = 21.9 hours per week.

Added on top of that, many nurseries don't include the first and last hour of the day in the funded portion of hours so these are paid by the parents. Many charge additionally for meals and snacks as well.

OP's nursery invoice is hard to get my head around so I don't know if this applies to OP's nursery but it's definitely the way it is worked out in our local nurseries.

I don’t know anyone who has it completely “free” unless their child does sessions at a school nursery i.e. fewer than 6 hours per day, term time only, which is obviously useless for people who work. And they still had to pay separately for dinners or provide a packed lunch.

DDs nursery is one of these and it doesn't make working easy. I think I would rather have the option of more hours available and then pay the difference.

Once at school you have the wrap around hours and 14 weeks school closures to cover.
In my area few schools reopened their wrap around clubs particularly the after school ones. Childminders are full from the existing children they had as babies ....im running out of space next year I can't take any of the Los that will be starting school unless my older ones leave...I have a year before any turn 8. So definetly no room for outside care....I prefer school children to have grown up with me anyway children from nursery in general don't know how to play and are not in my experience very independent.
So you could struggle to find childcare....many holiday clubs don't cover the full holidays and again they didnt all reopen.

I have a direct comparison currently between my 2 yo at nursery and 6 yo at school.

for the 2 yo - I bat not an eyelid. Nursery open 8-6 Monday to Friday except bank holidays. Voila.

the 6 yo? Haha: school opens only 9-3, so sort out before and after school care with separate entities. School closes every 6 weeks for half term. Sort out temporary childcare. School closes on random inset days. Who’s giving childcare for one off random days? School closes for massive long holidays thrice a year. What then?

hesus Christ - the one at school is far far far more intense to sort than the one that attends nursery.

I have NO idea where this myth of “oh once they’re in school then I can (insert whatever work related thing is being planned hazily)….” Came about.

@Gruffling I also have one in school and other in nursery. I second all the points @DuarPorte made with regards to wraparound childcare at either end of school day, regular school holidays and random inset days (the latter being the most challenging).

The other issue that people dont seem to acknowledge is emotional availability. In my DC case, nurseries have very small ratios, the carers tend to their emotional needs like hugs, physical contact etc as well as teaching, they get downtime when tired. School is not the same - it is exhausting for them. There are friendship dramas, there is emotional exhaustion from holding it together all day, homework etc. My DC are asleep at 7pm - working until end of the day would mean no waking time with them for all this. The small moments are where DC1 will confide to me about something that didn't go right that day.
There are also the activities and clubs that their friends do and the want to join so the endless taxi service

School is so so much harder than nursery - I don't know a single person who found that they suddenly had time once their DC went out of nursery and into reception

This is definetly the downside of not using a childminder as it stands 2023 will be the first year I won't be able to accommodate all my children going up to school....by 1 but things change so I maybe able to. They normally stay with me from babies to senior school and I cover wrap around, training and school holidays. Trouble is people don't think about this when they choose a nursery believing nurseries are offering something different or that childminders are not reliable

Its swings and roundabouts. We used a childminder for our son who is now in Year 1 - well 2 childminders actually across his early years and it was a huge relief in terms of predictability (for us) when we finally stopped and used my faculty nursery at work. For us it was far more organised and gave peace of mind after we moved from 2.5 years with childminders and over to nursery.

then when DD was born, without a single shred of doubt we put her in her big brothers nursery where she too is currently thriving.

Different people have different experiences - and both have benefits and disadvantages. For us, personally, after comparing both experiences, my work nursery has brought in much more than it has cost us. Other families will have other perspectives- goes without saying.

Difficulties in school vs nursery

• the staggered start that I detailed above, watch out for the school just randomly deciding your reception or year 1 dc won’t start until three weeks after the actual start of term, or will start on half days for a fortnight, or go every other day for the first month. That’s in addition to the settling in hours which were the summer before, it was expected for me to take my dc in for a random hour here and there to meet the teacher, get a little tour of the cloakroom etc.
• inset days, our school puts one on each weekday throughout the year and thinks 3-4 weeks is adequate notice that your DC can’t go to school on an odd mid term February Tuesday. Other random days, like the school closing to be a polling station, the school just shutting with no notice if there is snow (they now switch to work at home, and are happy there is no impact now from snow days….expect that I can’t go to work!), when the boiler breaks, when the school is evacuated. The school trips that pop up and suddenly you’ve to drop them off at 8am and pick up at 6.30pm - just the one dc, the others you’ll need to get at regular time. One DC wants to do coding club on a Monday finishing at 4pm, one DC wants to do netball on a Friday finishing at 4.30pm, the other wants to do movie club on a Wednesday finishing at 5pm.
• Getting them there, our primary starts at 9am and no one can enter the grounds until 8.50am. There is a breakfast club at the other primary in town and they walk them over, the breakfast club opens at 8.15am.
• Getting them back, our school has staggered finish times to minimise the rush/crush/effect on local traffic. Means you could be picking up one dc at 3.05pm and one at 3.30pm and the finish time changes every year so for childminders keeping up with it and arranging people to collect them is a bit of a mare. There is an after school club, it closes at 5pm.
• Expected involvement in school. I’m expected to go in if I need to talk to teacher about the dc. I need to go in to give permission for medications and if needed during the school day, to administer them. I’m expected at 2 progress evenings per dc per year. 2 parents evenings per dc per year. And events - including but not limited to school play costume making sessions, guided reading with your dc, parents day, the big sleepover when I was expected to pick up my dc in my PJs and sit in school for bedtime stories and hot chocolate, the art show with all your DCs work set up like in an art gallery, the nativity, the harvest festival, the end of school play, the Christmas fair, the summer fair which is a whole weekend, the Christmas disco, the Halloween disco, the end of summer term party, the football matches on after school, the cross country races on Saturday mornings, swimming on Thursdays. Sports Day (and reserve sports day in case of bad weather) Voting on parent governors, costumes for Red Nose Day, children in need, world book day, wear red day, odd sock day, year 3 are dressing as vikings today, year four are dressing as superheroes tomorrow, the year fives are doing a talent show and your dc needs to practice, the auditions for the school play are next week, you need to make an Easter bonnet. It’s non uniform on Friday for anti bullying week, there’s a child selling scrunchies for charity on Wednesday so bring change, the food bank appeal is on Tuesday so bring tins of beans.
• Homework, reading planners, art folders, projects (parents must sign daily) and sending them to school with a fully charged laptop each, (laptops are school property but we have to provide a laptop bag for transporting and charge them at home) Keep track of the log ins for reading eggs, mathletics, times table rockstars, spelling shed, parent pay, the school blog (comments expected and DC rewarded if parents read blog) parentmail, behaviour points, special mentions, dojo points and dojo times. DC marked down if they don’t have the equipment they need when that’s your fault.
• school uniform, hours of finding the right shoes without logos that actually fit, trying to get generic school stuff to stay where it’s put on your DC, school bags, school coats and all the laundry.

the fact is if you get something wrong you feel like you leave your DC exposed to the consequences. So, forget to charge one computer and the DC is told off in class when they all get them out, forget a non uniform day and your DC will be embarrassed, miss a school event and your DC feels left out, don’t sign their homework book and they miss out on the end of year treat. Don’t buy them the right kind of protractor and they get negative points, the washing machine ate their tie, they get put in isolation, can’t afford new school shoes, they go looking scruffy and are teased. And so on.

Yes - just reiterating the emotional labour for school aged small children. It really doesn't compare to my early years DD currently or DS when he was early years. The sheer disruptiveness of school, the many (many) days/events/take a coin in alongside the support needed for learning, emotional coaching, - all of it - on top of the scheduling points I and PP have noted mean school is big jolt to working parents' systems.

The broader point here being made is around how these arbitrary points in time when people plan to vaguely pick careers back up/return to work ("once their free hours kick in" - or"just waiting till they go to school") - are just that: arbitrary, unpredictable and somehow doesn't screen "oooh best time to seek a new position after years off the market" to me (and others)

I agree. How I wish I could have those long nursery days back. I had SO much time to work.

Now it's a short day, DD has to turn up with a varying array of stuff each day, school seem to invite parents to be present at events during the working day on at least a monthly basis. DD wants me to be there.

Forms, filling in reading records, giving permission for in-school eye tests, logging onto this system or that to do such and such.

I find it very time consuming and it is affecting my work. Because I am self-employed there seems to be an expectation that it's easy for me to get time off work.