AIBU - Nanny sick leave

[UnsavySaville]

Hi!

First time poster and first nanny employer so looking for some context.

Our NWOC has been with us just over 6 months. She has a annualised contract with 6hr/day in term time and 11hr/day in holiday 4 days/week; Avg working week 29hrs
Within that time she has had 9 days (sometimes whole day sometimes part day) or 61hrs off for her or her child's illness all of which we have paid. [equivalent to 7.5day of 8 hrs]
Additionally she has taken 4 weeks annual leave directly followed by 3 weeks unpaid leave when she informed us via text she was not returning from abroad due unforeseen circumstances. i.e 7 consecutive weeks

We have asked her some additional hours in lieu of those paid (18hrs).

We have been clear that with our jobs we can accommodate illness for full pay, if she can accommodate some flexibility when we need to make it the hours missed. This is because sometimes we would have to swop with colleagues and then pay them back. However this is not always the case, and if not we are happy to take the hit financially and time wise. We've made it super clear we NOT expecting her to repay every hour (which is what we are being accused of) but just to provide us flexibility.

She has made it clear that she feels we ABU and that she expects to be paid for any sick leave taken for either her or her child, without any need to pay it back

AIBU?
We want to be kind and generous employers but equally we can't afford to pay her and the additional childcare on top, which we have made clear.
Its becoming a recurrent issue which is causing me a lot of stress.

Thanks for your thoughts.

She’s taking the mickey! No you don’t pay her for her childcare issues. She’s lucky she’s not being sacked! She shouldn’t be allowed 4 weeks paid leave in the first six months unless she doesn’t have any for the rest of the year.

Why are you paying for her child being sick . Look for a better nanny

You're being taken for a ride OP. She wants everything to benefit her and nothing to benefit you and for you to keep paying regardless of whether she turns up to work. Seven weeks off in a row, having only arranged for four??? She'd have been fired from any other job for that little stunt.

Look for a new nanny. This is untenable for you, and if she’s not happy either then it’s best you part ways.

It’s not working for you so I would end her employment

I think you need a much more descriptive contract with her eg either she takes full pay and works back the time or she takes ssp/ unpaid carers leave. You’re leaving it too ambiguous. You also need to check the legality of asking her to make up time for sickness.
Taking an extra 3 weeks on top of 4 weeks holiday sounds like an absolute mickey take and personally I’d think about getting rid of her for that. Majority of work places wouldn’t allow 4 consecutive weeks holiday and not returning without good reason would be disciplinary. Being a flexible employer only really works if you have a respectful employee!

Very few employers offer time off for dependants' illness, let alone paid. Sometimes it can be an occasional day to arrange alternative provision. It sounds as of she has actually worked less than half of the time she has been employed. Does the contract give full pay if off sick or her child is sick, is there an absence policy to cover this and taking leave? Did she pass probation?

You need to clearly differentiate between sick for her and cover for a sick child - which is not sick.

You have to pay HER sick pay at at least ssp - dependant on what your contract days. You do not however have to pay her for her childcare days at all. Those would be unpaid carers leave. So she either takes the time unpaid or works the time back - dependant on what you agree.

Realistically though I'd say she's broken trust 7 weeks off without notice- she wouldn't have been coming back here.

Thanks for the replies

@LIZS
We did everything by the book with regards to the drawing up the contract - It says SSP only and doesn't include any allowance for dependents illness.

We have chosen not to enforce the SSP rule to date as we recognise there is always some goodwill within any family/nanny relationship particularly when looking after young children, who frequently get ill. Hence our request for flexibility

Trouble is she is now being difficult about looking after my children when they are ill in case she/her child becomes ill and result in them being off - hence the recurrent issue

In term of dependent illness it is 21 hours out of the 61 i.e less than the 18hrs she has made up. And we have excellent records for everything.

Good point @BungleandGeorge however about checking legality - I'll clarify with Nannytax on Monday.

Really?
Honestly just get someone else. She sounds really difficult.

For context the hours thing became an issue when she was trying to work out how much of her annual leave allowance vs take unpaid to use for the trip abroad.

She became upset that
a) BH were included
-We explained that we both work BH so needed cover for these. If she wanted to guarantee to be off then she needs to use annual leave but we would be happy to given these as extra if/when we were off

and
b) she'd have no annual leave left for the rest of the year as taking leave in school holidays uses more hours.

She tried to get us to agree it in days but we stuck to the contract on this, which where the rub started.

I think by trying to be nice you've made it more complicated than it need be, and she is taking advantage. I'd look for someone else if it's not working for you and think carefully about the contract. There's quite a big area between paying for her child's sick days and offering just the minimum.

I would be giving however much notice you need to and finding someone else.

You've been a bit of a pushover until now so she thinks she can do what she likes, nobody should be expecting to be paid for time of sick for their child and 7 weeks of leave on top of the illness in a 6 month period is ridiculous

It's all very complicated, why bother creating a contract if you then go against it? The bank holiday statement is confusing. I can understand her feeling on the back foot. There are a lot of maybes and references to flexibility and so if it were be I would feel very unsettled. You are leaving too much open to interpretation and it is unlikely that any two people would agree on what is a fair representation. Make the rules more clear or start again with someone new (and don't be so vague with the next one!)

Yes, you need to find another nanny.

By the way, what does NWOC mean?

Given she has taken 7 weeks leave - I would say she has used ALL of her annual leave for this year and anything extra will be unpaid. Otherwise you will end up owing her leave or being owed unpaid/already paid for hours which you will never get back.

Maybe look at her contracted hours from the day she started with you, and knock off what she has actually done (including her own sick time) and go from there and see where you are at!

@PainterMummy

Yes, you need to find another nanny.

By the way, what does NWOC mean?

I think Nanny with own child/children?

Time to let her go and find a new nanny. She has been employed for less than 2 years so just give her notice.

You can’t ask her to repay sick time but you don’t have to pay her more than SSP.

It would be far simpler to say that if she is sick it’s SSP, if child is sick it’s nothing. And any extra you ask her to work is paid overtime.

Giving her that much unpaid leave is crazy.

To be honest I don’t think she will ever be a reliable nanny so I’d look for someone else and next time try to get off on the right foot from the start with a more professional arrangement.

@123walrus it’s not sick time she’s being asked to repay - it’s additional non scheduled time off to look after her own child.
OP what’s your position on her bringing her own child with minor illnesses to your house? It’s one of those tricky things for an NwOC arrangement; I always looked at it and felt that the reduction in hourly rate went no way at all towards the inconvenience of accommodating another child’s timetable / mess / ailments/ mother’s time.

I've had a nanny where we gave a lot of flexibility expecting some reciprocity that never came. I also felt she took advantage but by then it was so hard to get back on track. If you take away a privilege she's had before she'll be sore about it, even if it's not something nannies usually have.

If just start again with a new nanny in your shoes, and be prescriptive about every aspect of the role. Then everyone knows where they stand.

New nanny. I can’t believe she took 7 weeks off and you accommodated that.

Our nanny has had 8 sick days in the last 6 months and doesn’t offer to make up any time. She’s just had 5 days off for covid and then a sickness bug. We pay ssp for any illnesses that she hasn’t caught from our DC (sickness bug she caught from them). Would pay in full if she ever had an inch of flexibility. She doesn’t so there is no goodwill on either side.

You sound like great, very reasonable employers and she is taking the piss! I say that as a nanny that took my child with me to work.

Why on earth did you allow her to take 4w off paid

Was this discussed at interview she had a holiday booked

Should have been paid maybe fir 2w as her choice and other 2w unpaid

Why did she then stay another 3w

So in 6mths she’s had off 7w holiday and countless days off to look after her own sick child paid

But won’t look after you sick kids

Get rid now

Find a new nanny
This relationship has broken down

I am a nanny with own children. Your nanny is taking advantage

I’ve been a nanny fir 30 years and expect a little give and take from both sides. Flexibility is key