Paying Childcare notice period after safe guarding

[Luce464]

Please help!

So basically my 3 year old daughter has been to one childminder since she was 8 months old. Now my 1 year old son also goes there along with my daughter, well up until 2 weeks ago. My daughter made a very disturbing allegation against her 11 year old son who's autistic and home schooled ( no parent wants to hear that from their 3 year old or any child for that matter).
So when I spoke to the childminder about it, she said she'll need to report it to ofsted and local authorities and obviously this will result me not having childcare anymore! This was done over phone call so have no proof that she said it.
Got a phone call a couple of days later from the local authority to ask me exactly what my daughter had told me and showed me, to then said they'll look into it and get back in contact and advised me to speak to my health visitor. The next day I spoke to my health visitor who was a confused why she hadn't been contacted about the situation so she went and spoke to them herself, she then phoned me the following day to tell me that they had closed the case. Obviously my partner and I weren't happy with this and can't understand why it hadn't been investigated further. My partner then phoned the local authority to ask questions why the case had been closed and they couldn't really say much for confidential reasons but also they didn't want to send someone round to speak to my daughter as this may upset her (totally understand that but as a parent all you want to do is protect your child but also find out why they hadn't done anything).
So we then reported it to the police as we was advised. Haven't heard anything back now for a week as I know these investigations could take time.
Anyway I received an email from that childminder today stating unpaid fees for 4 weeks notice. I thought hang on a moment she told me I now have no childcare in her setting and my child has been asulted and yet she still wants money out of me even though she knows this would of resulted me not being able to work due to no childcare, my stress levels are through the roof and I've got to find someone else to trust to look after my children. I spoke to citizens advice about the unpaid fees and they're saying I probably will have to pay her due to the contract agreement, surely this isn't right as my child was asulted by her son, 3 year olds can't make up a lie like that surely? it was so specific and she didn't understand it was something wrong! Please someone tell me where I stand as this is like living a nightmare literally

Not everything in a contract is necessarily legally valid. The people at CAB are usually well meaning volunteers and their advice is not always correct.

Personally I would not pay. I think you are quite correct to go to the police and I hope they investigate it throughly. Clearly the childminder is not providing the service so there is no reason to pay them. I hope your DD isn't too traumatised, this must be very hard to be going through.

Tbf the guy at CAB did say he couldn't give me legal advice but just advice, but as she's still operatingand hasnt been suspended the contractual agreement should still be in place and he said that my children would of been able to go back after the case was closed, like wtf is he on something, who intheir right mind would send their children back to somewhere where it could happen again or worse.
I will be absolutely shocked if I do have to pay as its totally unfair on me and my family as now I'm going to have to pay double the amount of childcare on very little money as I haven't been able to work these past two weeks (I'm self employed).
We've spoken to the police about it so just got to wait it out and see what happens next, fingers crossed something will 🤞🏻
My DD seems ok and I've tried not to bring it up infront of her as I don't want her remembering if possible but she's very bright and always listening 🤦🏼‍♀️

The CAB guys sounds rubbish. Ignore him.

You had a contract with the childminder and you owe her money under it if she meets her contractual obligations the MOST important of which was to keep your child physically safe. She failed to do that so she, not you, first breached the contract. You ‘accepted her breach’ and the contract came to an end.

(Also, she can only get money out of you for a breach of contract claim if she takes you to court, in which case there will be public evidence on both sides including what her son is said to have done. Seems unlikely she will do that, especially as she would probably lose.)

I wouldn’t pay her a penny. I would send her a formal letter saying something like:

Dear x

I write further to your message of requesting that I pay you fees for the notice period of our contract. I was very surprised to receive your message.

Our childcare contract did not come to an end because of any notice from me. It came to an end because you failed in your legal duty to keep my child physically safe, which was a breach of contract by you, as well as a huge safeguarding issue which as you are aware has been reported to the police and other authorities.

Also, when I raised the matter with you, you said that you would not be providing any more childcare to me, a further breach of the contract.

The contract thus came to an end as a result of the breaches by you, and no further sums are due to you from me under the contract. Should you feel otherwise, you are of course free to commence legal proceedings in a court. Please note that should you choose to do that, I would bring a counterclaim for my lost earnings caused by your breaches of contract.

All rights are reserved, including the right for me to take legal proceedings against you without further notice to you, which may be for my lost earnings as well as your culpability for the assault on my daughter and negligence in that regard.

Regards,
OP.

Ps none of that is legal advice!!

I wouldn’t pay. Surely she breached the contract by not keeping you dc safe?

My reply would be a lot shorter than above. Something like “are you serious?! Just to be clear, I won’t be paying and the allegation is now a police matter.”

Op please do not pay! She ended the contract!
Also please ensure the police investigate if you can. If she is a childminder - then I assume she has other children in her care? Were ofsted not concerned with that? Or the LA

@Skysblue

The CAB guys sounds rubbish. Ignore him.

You had a contract with the childminder and you owe her money under it if she meets her contractual obligations the MOST important of which was to keep your child physically safe. She failed to do that so she, not you, first breached the contract. You ‘accepted her breach’ and the contract came to an end.

(Also, she can only get money out of you for a breach of contract claim if she takes you to court, in which case there will be public evidence on both sides including what her son is said to have done. Seems unlikely she will do that, especially as she would probably lose.)

I wouldn’t pay her a penny. I would send her a formal letter saying something like:

Dear x

I write further to your message of requesting that I pay you fees for the notice period of our contract. I was very surprised to receive your message.

Our childcare contract did not come to an end because of any notice from me. It came to an end because you failed in your legal duty to keep my child physically safe, which was a breach of contract by you, as well as a huge safeguarding issue which as you are aware has been reported to the police and other authorities.

Also, when I raised the matter with you, you said that you would not be providing any more childcare to me, a further breach of the contract.

The contract thus came to an end as a result of the breaches by you, and no further sums are due to you from me under the contract. Should you feel otherwise, you are of course free to commence legal proceedings in a court. Please note that should you choose to do that, I would bring a counterclaim for my lost earnings caused by your breaches of contract.

All rights are reserved, including the right for me to take legal proceedings against you without further notice to you, which may be for my lost earnings as well as your culpability for the assault on my daughter and negligence in that regard.

Regards,
OP.

This is a really good message to send. Fill in all the dates, etc and send it as an email so you have a time-stamped record of it.

It all seems a bit odd that if it’s serious enough to take to the police the case was closed and nothing happened.
Are you sure it wasn’t an accident? I just can’t comprehend how she, as a childminder, could get away with it.

@NeedAHoliday2021

My reply would be a lot shorter than above. Something like “are you serious?! Just to be clear, I won’t be paying and the allegation is now a police matter.”

I nearly did write something similar but managed to calm down and have a good think and try and find advice

@Clementineapples

It all seems a bit odd that if it’s serious enough to take to the police the case was closed and nothing happened. Are you sure it wasn’t an accident? I just can’t comprehend how she, as a childminder, could get away with it.

No the police haven't closed the case as we reported it the day we found out that the local authorities had closed it as we were advised by LA that we could do that. I'm pretty sure it's to do with the lads autism, not that that's an excuse and I haven't got an issue with autistic people, my partners cousin is autistic and she knows right from wrong and my friends daughter is also the same. The thing is no one seen it happen as it was behind a curtain, but I keep saying why was it hidden if he didn't know it was wrong?? And surely if he didn't understand it was wrong he would of done it infront of everyone not knowing??

@whattodotwittwoo

Op please do not pay! She ended the contract! Also please ensure the police investigate if you can. If she is a childminder - then I assume she has other children in her care? Were ofsted not concerned with that? Or the LA

I'm trying to make sure I don't. The police officer did seem a little confused as to why it hadn't been taken further so she said leave it with them for the time being. Haven't heard from ofsted, not sure if the LA are all connected with them and they would have already agreed with them not to take any further action, I really don't know, I'm so confused with it all. Also yes she has other children in her care, my two nieces were there also but have now been removed as they believe my daughter

@Skysblue

The CAB guys sounds rubbish. Ignore him.

You had a contract with the childminder and you owe her money under it if she meets her contractual obligations the MOST important of which was to keep your child physically safe. She failed to do that so she, not you, first breached the contract. You ‘accepted her breach’ and the contract came to an end.

(Also, she can only get money out of you for a breach of contract claim if she takes you to court, in which case there will be public evidence on both sides including what her son is said to have done. Seems unlikely she will do that, especially as she would probably lose.)

I wouldn’t pay her a penny. I would send her a formal letter saying something like:

Dear x

I write further to your message of requesting that I pay you fees for the notice period of our contract. I was very surprised to receive your message.

Our childcare contract did not come to an end because of any notice from me. It came to an end because you failed in your legal duty to keep my child physically safe, which was a breach of contract by you, as well as a huge safeguarding issue which as you are aware has been reported to the police and other authorities.

Also, when I raised the matter with you, you said that you would not be providing any more childcare to me, a further breach of the contract.

The contract thus came to an end as a result of the breaches by you, and no further sums are due to you from me under the contract. Should you feel otherwise, you are of course free to commence legal proceedings in a court. Please note that should you choose to do that, I would bring a counterclaim for my lost earnings caused by your breaches of contract.

All rights are reserved, including the right for me to take legal proceedings against you without further notice to you, which may be for my lost earnings as well as your culpability for the assault on my daughter and negligence in that regard.

Regards,
OP.

Thank you for the letter template, will definitely be using that x

Whether he knew it was wrong or not is beside the point. If he was not capable of telling whether this is right or wrong he shouldn’t be allowed unsupervised access to other children!

I think you should sent the suggested email above.

Also, how is a registered childminder allowed to home school her son while she has charges in her care? Unless there is someone else there managing that I just don't see how that can be allowed? Childminders are not supposed to do anything for themselves during working hours so all cleaning etc is supposed to be done after children leave.

I'm a bit confused. Her son has been accused of assault on your daughter. This has been investigated by Ofsted, yet she is still a registered childminder looking after children? Presumably her son is still in the house while this is happening? Was the complainant upheld? If it was how is she still registered and working. If it wasn't upheld she's probably got a case for her notice money.

@amylou8

I'm a bit confused. Her son has been accused of assault on your daughter. This has been investigated by Ofsted, yet she is still a registered childminder looking after children? Presumably her son is still in the house while this is happening? Was the complainant upheld? If it was how is she still registered and working. If it wasn't upheld she's probably got a case for her notice money.

I'm confused too. Yes she is still registered and still operating and her son is still there when other children are there and interacting with them. Sorry I'm not understanding what you mean about the upheld bit?? If she has got a case for the notice money that's an absolute joke, I didn't ask for my dd to be asulted nor did I say I was going to remove them, I just spoke to her on the phone about it, in tears, she then said she'd need to report it and it will result me not having any childcare anymore

@amylou8

I'm a bit confused. Her son has been accused of assault on your daughter. This has been investigated by Ofsted, yet she is still a registered childminder looking after children? Presumably her son is still in the house while this is happening? Was the complainant upheld? If it was how is she still registered and working. If it wasn't upheld she's probably got a case for her notice money.

Ofsted are useless

We had a serious issue where I had a minor argument with the nursery manager (ds had allergies and she insisted I provide all his food plus pay full snack fees I said I’d provide or pay and they provide. She went mental at me)

She then called ss maliciously alleged that I was fabricating allergies and gad never shown her proof (luckily I was able to show the email I’d sent her with his hospital letter) she then called them again and said she witnessed me hit him ! I was fully investigated

I made formal complaints to the LA and Ofsted neither did a thing. They just didn’t care

There's an excellent poster @prh47bridge who may be able to advise on this

Write a shorter letter...

On X Date, my daughter made an allegation of abuse while in your care. This is currently with the police and I will not comment any further on this matter until it has been resolved.

I spoke to you on Y date and you advised me by phone that you would need to report this and would no longer be able to care for my children, effective immediately. I accepted this verbal communication from you as an immediate termination of our contract.

Sincerely,

If she pushes you for payment, repeat... you terminated the contract. If you wish to pursue this, that is your right but in my defence, I will be stating that procedures in your house were inadequate to ensure the safety of my children while in your care and for this reason, the implied terms of our contract were breached by you and that I am not liable for any payment in lieu of notice.

I'm not convinced the phone call helps. Not only is there no proof if she disputes your account, it sounds to me like she is suggesting that she will be closed down once she reported the alleged incident to Ofsted and the LA rather than telling you she is terminating the contract.

If this ended up in court, the question would be whether there has been a fundamental breach of contract by the childminder. The fact there has been an alleged safeguarding incident is not necessarily a fundamental breach contrary to what some posters seem to think. No-one can ever guarantee there will be no safeguarding incidents or allegations. What matters is how the childminder reacts when an allegation is made. She has clearly reported the allegation correctly. The authorities are clearly happy for her to continue operating. If she has taken appropriate steps to prevent any recurrence, the courts may decide there has been no fundamental breach and therefore you are liable. However, I only say that tentatively as I haven't seen the contract, nor do I know the details of the alleged incident.

Note that I have consistently referred to this as an allegation. From a safeguarding perspective, this is an allegation that must be taken seriously and investigated properly, but we don't make any assumptions about whether or not it is true until it has been fully investigated.

3 year olds can't make up a lie like that surely?

I don't know details of the alleged assault, so it is difficult to comment directly. However, at that age my youngest had already figured out he could get his older brother into trouble by bursting into tears and claiming his brother had hit him. In general, children start lying at around three years old, with some starting as young as two and a half. But, as I say, I don't know exactly what was alleged, nor do I know the circumstances in which the allegation was made.

Yes, I've had 3 year olds say that I've kicked them when they've tripped over my foot. I've also had a two year old tell his Mum that I said he was naughty when I've never used that word. Kids do misinterpret but this doesn't sound like that with your child

So basically my daughter and I was watching TV on Sunday a couple of weeks ago and she had her hands down her pants, I asked her what she was doing and to get them out. She then said X does it, me thinking, he's a pre teen so I thought she meant himself and said that to her, she then turned around casually and said no, to me. I was like wtf?!?! I asked her what do u mean, she said we was playing hide and seek near the swimming pool behind the curtain (she means hot tub as we also have one and she calls it a swimming pool and there's a curtained canopy around it). I made sure I wasn't asking her yes or no answer questions aswell. She said X tickled my bum, (this is also why the LA have closed the case due to my daughter saying that meaning lack of evidence). I then asked her can you show me what happened please as I know she gets a little confused with front and back. But she pulled her trousers forward away from her and put her hand down her front touching her vagina. She said it as if there was nothing wrong, so specific and not trying to get X into trouble as she had no reason to. Hope that might help a bit more?

If my child had been sexually abused I wouldn’t even be thinking about money.

Call ofsted again, call 999 if you need to.