How much untidiness would you tolerate from your nanny...

[ExpLEUSIveS]

before you issue her with a formal written warning?

I used to think this was a battle not worth having. But it's unbearable. And rest assured I am no neat freak myself. But, I've gone over it with her time and time again. The duties are clearly outlined in the contract, and I have explained them on several occassions when it became apparent they need clarification and she needed reminding.

Would it be hasty of me to issue her with a formal written warning?

janitor,
I don't do them because:
1- I pay her to do them. And I don't do work I pay other people to do.
2- I'm too bloody tired by the time I finally get home from a long day at the office, which of course is why I have a nanny.

Have you had previous nannies- how did they manage it? (I ask because I think I would struggle with the amount of stuff you want done on top of childcare). Does she take the children out? I took ds3 out yesterday and only managed to unload the dishwasher and put on a wash inbetween.

Perhaps try 5 mins at the end of the day to tidy. It doesn't work with all my therapists, but it has worked with most of them.

mmj,

A nanny only works on child-related tasks. When you are a mum at home, your remit is much wider than this - adult laundry, non-child related cleaning, spring cleaning, gardening, paperwork, shopping, etc.

I use aupairs for childcare, and it is so disappointing coming home to a messy house. You have been at work all day and are tired, still have to cook for DH etc., and have to then do the job that you've paid someone else to do.

We've all been SAHMs, even if it was for just a short time on maternity leave or on holidays, and we have a pretty good handle at what the job is, and how big it is.

It's a great idea to get kids to help, but at this age they aren't really much actual help, which is why you have employed a comptent adult to run your house in your absence. You quite rightly expect her to do more than just keep the kids from jumping off the roof and you made it clear to her from the start.

have you ever looked at the flylady stuff?

I keep thinking there are useful ideas in there that can be used yourself, used for kids to help them grow up tidy, and also given to your nanny/housekeeper (which seems to be what they are called now if expected to lift a plate).

things like a control book that has eveything in writing of what you want done, and when. I guesss you already have a lot of this, but it isn't working with this person.

I am slowly doing this myself and applying it to paid help as well (which is not who it is aimed at, but hey any port in a storm).

It may not be worth it at this stage, but for your next one might be worth starting to organise.

This is not a question of which is more important: quality time with the kids or a tidy house. Both are required duties. I shall not entertain settling for one or the other.

Also, I don't really think the job of SAHM equates to the job of nanny. I think SAHMs have more to do because there are usually aspects of running a household and raising a family which do not fall within the nanny's scope of work. For example, she doesn't do the grocery shopping or take the excess garbage to the dump. SAHMs don't get off work every day at a certain time. Being a live-in nanny is not a 24 hour job.

But if she's not managing both then surely one is more important than the other? Does she take the kids out? Maybe she's out too much with them? Perhaps ask her to only go out when she's done jobs x,y and z then you'll know that at least a certain amount will get done.

I think leaving a dirty plate is quite a reasonable test of whether someone is willing to fulfill their responsibilities, that include dealing with it not leaving it for their employer to sort.

Both kids take a nap in the afternoon. She does have time to do this. And, also, I do allow some tv viewing if she needs them to be safely entertained while she tend to her chores. I think this is more about a lack of planning and initiative then time constraints.

I have had previous nannies. And, yes, they managed to do these things.

My nanny used to manage to keep the place very tidy and clean with a 2 and 4 year old, and never let them watch any tv either. But she left

I really feel for you, I am having a similar situation with a housekeeper-good with the kids (which is now a minor part of duties) but has to be shown almost everything in huge detail again and again, with no eye for the difference between an unworkable mess, and a neat usable space. I also get a long face with every explanation, even though I am doing my best to issue it as gently "teaching" rather than admonishment. And I keep thinking, most people already KNOW to not put away very damp clothes in drawers, for example.

And I have to do somehow do this instruction, after a long hard day at work, while dds demand my attention, simultaneously cooking the evening meal.

The point of her was to let me do some of those "mum only" chores that have piled up, namely the decluttering. But she still takes almost as much time as she saves, after 4 weeks!

how about renegotiating her contract with her to pay her less and hiring a cleaner?

She might say no I will do it myself, OR OK, and you can get someone who will focus on the cleaning.

The result you want is a clean house and happy kids, doesn't matter how you get there.

just an idea

All these jobs that are required have always been part of my duties and i've managed them even in my first job when i had hardly any experience. But saying that i'm obviously alot better at organising and doing these jobs now after 10 years of nannying.

Definately go the route of a checklist and explain to her that these jobs really need to be done and maybe help her plan her day a bit, although i know it's a pain to have to spend the time managing her like this but if the other option is having to look for another nanny it might be worth it. Then say give her a month to get up to speed and then give her a written warning, after that i can't really see what you can do but sack her. Good luck.

ele - I have a spreadsheet which itemises exactly what is expected of the kids/adults (basically a sumisation of the flylady manual) every day. It is split into BEFORE MORNING ROUTINE (Upstairs/Downstairs); AFTER SCHOOL ROUTINE (encompasses homework/coooking/kids tidy-up time); BEFORE BED ROUTINE. Its on the PC at home - I'll send it to you tonight. With some APs I have to set-out letter-by-letter exactly what they have to do (split into 15 minute slots) and with some I give it to them as a guide and they just do what is expected (current one is great for this).

It is actually quite good for getting dh to do a bit around the house (ie last adult to bed switches the dishwasher on whey they switch the lights off). I do like the flylady but she can be a bit full on so I've just tailored it to suit my needs.

ooh mrs recycle can I have one too?

My current nanny has been an absolute godsend. In her contract, i have stated that although we have a cleaner that comes 2x a week, the general cleanliness of the kitchen and playarea will also be her responsibility because that's where the kids play the most and meals (the kids') are clearly prepared there. When i come home, sometimes i think the cleaner has just been because she is able to keep it neat and tidy. And the times i have come home slightly earlier, i can see how she does it - she cleans the kitchen while the kids are eating - and if the little one needs feeding the main course, she makes sure his pudding is cut up fruit - which he can eat himself easily to free her up to do a quick tidy up. And then after dinner, it's straight up the bathroom for bath time - and whilst there may be some toys brought out after bathtime when i get home - i can see the surfaces/floor/sink are definitely clean.
And like earlier comments here, i don't think it's an either/or situation of choosing someone who is great with the kids (which she is -- as the entire wall filled with artwork and the cookies/muffins baked by them at least 2x a week show and lots of time to play outside) and being able to do the other duties too. She is just very organised. She does the children's laundry on Mondays and Fridays (puts away same day), she does the ironing when they have their naps in the afternoon; cleans kitchen when they are having their tea; and tends to make traybakes of food - so for example, she has made big batch of shepherd's pie - one to cook today - one in freezer (same for things like fish pie, lasagne) - which means on some days, she doesn't need to clean as much because she didn't need to cook.
Eleusis, perhaps you can suggest a timetable? For example:

1. Mondays - Change bedsheets, do children's laundry, put in dryer, put away in cupboards or in ironing basket
2. Children's naptimes - Tuesday - Do children's ironing, other days - prepare some meals
3. Whilst children having tea - do a quick clean of kitchen surfaces, put away dishes in dishwasher
4. After bath time, get children to put away toys etc and maybe just get books out for the evening?

I had a previous nanny who tried very hard to convince me that it was impossible to do all of what my current nanny is doing - and she only had 1 child to look after then. We also had to turn a blind eye to the state of her bedroom - (was an absolute tip but it was her bedroom). BUT our current experience tells us it is possible (and her bedroom is neater than ours!)

I think specific guidelines might be required here as just a general chat on tidyness does not seem to do the trick and she is good on the other bits.

wow mrs recycle. how much will it cost to have you come round and sort out my lot

blimey, i didn't mean it to be that long! sorry!!

A bottle of wine? Yes I'm that cheap and you're only round the corner from me as well elesbells!! (I'm in Ruislip).

Majorstress will send to you as well.

Oh, some good advice here. Thanks guys.

Will look forward to your schedule/list/project plam Mrs. R!

I also like your timetable idea, Knackered.

I think I may start by asking her to tell me what her schedule is like and I'll suggest where things can be amended. The school run is quite far away and requires a bus trip. And I do want to make sure my expectations are realistic with school runs and activitites which I ask her to attend.

It IS hard to work out how much time things take with kids, when you aren't following her around with a stopwatch. The kids themselves and the nature of the job are ever-changing in some ways.

However, you obviously have not got quite the same priorities as her-for example, she might think it's ok to leave dirty dishes around but you are wiser and have a better idea of what food poisoning is like, and that that is more important than being 5 minutes late for tumbletots.

Can you keep a list of each thing that annoys you and try to deal with one thing each day (i.e. yeserdays top stressor) on your handover when you get in? I'm trying that now. And keep notes for your permanent master "house" list as you go.

My old Nanny had a 4 month old and a bus trip to take dd1 (3) to pre-school (40 minutes trip) twice a day and I still came back to a spotless house (even with a screaming 4 month old who would not be put down).

Did you explain at interview that tidiness is so important for you?

My feeling is that although you might make some progress with your nanny she is never going to deliver what you want.

I would view a good relationship with the children as the most important thing by far and would try to work around other problems and be prepared to compromise. You are coming across on the basis of your posts as an unusually exacting employer - or maybe she is an unusually exasperating employee - it's hard to tell!

It's not unreasonable to expect dishes used in the course of the day to be washed, DV.

no, not unreasonable