Have to let Nanny go!

[Maisiesaves]

(Hoping @NannyNick is around?! :))

As the title says, we are letting our Nanny go. She has been working with us for nearly 2 months. This is what her contract says with regards to termination of contract:

Termination and notice period
The prior written notice required from you or the Employer to terminate your employment shall be 4 weeks’ notice.
We may at our discretion terminate your employment without notice and make a payment of basic salary in lieu of notice.
We shall be entitled to dismiss you at any time without notice if you commit a serious breach of your obligations as an employee, such as committing an act of gross misconduct or misleading us about your qualifications, or if you cease to be entitled to work in the United Kingdom.

We don't want her back in the home, so am I right in thinking I can write to her and terminate her contract and pay her the 4 weeks' worth of salary? Do I pay that straight away or on her usual pay day? Do I need to state a reason for terminating the contract?

^The reasons are:
-She's kissing my son goodbye multiple times and when he's in the bath and insisting he kisses her. (My son is vulnerable with various disabilities including autism. We have told him he kisses mummy and daddy only and now he's 8, it's on the cheek, but we also don't insist he kiss us! However, if an adult tells him to do something, he will comply, because of his vulnerability!)

-She's patting him on the bottom, both over his clothes and once he stripped down because his clothes were wet and she patted him on his bare bottom!

-She's oversharing her personal business with the other adult in the house, cornering him when he is trying to go about his day (we're both uni students and work from home) and talking to him about personal things that she's been late to pick my son up from school, asking to borrow books and games, and asking the other adult for advice on her personal life. She also asks lots of personal questions about the other adult's private life, and when he's eating and taking a break from work, she sits and comments on the programmes he's watching and tries to bait him into arguments and debates, often neglecting my son to carry on these conversations! It's gotten to the point when the other adult is anxious at the time she's due to arrive and he doesn't want to leave the room he is in. The other problem is she treats me completely differently, apologises if she has to ask my something as she's interrupting me, and doesn't stop me for a chat about her personal life.^

It just feels like some boundaries have been overstepped and we are no longer comfortable having her in the home. I have never had to fire someone before and I just want to make sure I get it right and don't open myself up to any nasty business!!

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Boundaries have been overstepped because you have allowed them to be.
As your employer each time she does something wrong you must correct her, if you don't correct her whilst you are there then she will assume she is doing nothing wrong. There is no point simmering in silence. Sack her if you don't feel comfortable, but without clear boundaries with your next nanny, you will be in exactly the same position again.

Sack her and pay her her notice but tell her you dont require her to work.
Also learn from this and set firmer boundaries from the start

Yeah, this has been a learning curve for sure.

This behaviour has escalated in the last week or so, ever since she took a personal day. We were clear from the start that we are a professional household, covered all aspects of professional working and confidentiality etc. I didn't think saying don't kiss our son or pat him on his bottom would be something that needs to be made explicit either? Is that typical Nanny behaviour? She's also a qualified teacher and worked as a teaching assistant in a special needs school so we expected she would conduct herself in the same manner as she would when working in those settings.

Do I need to give a reason or just say we no longer require your services and will pay you your notice instead of you working it?

What are you going to say to her about providing a reference though? Because she will mist likely ask for one.

@MarchionessofActon, As previous posters have said, this is partly my fault for not being more firm and nipping any undesirable behaviour in the bud so I will give her a good reference. Her work as a nanny in terms of doing activities with my son and looking after him, making his food and clearing up after him etc have all been fine. Again, I'm not sure if the kissing and patting on bottom is usual for a Nanny to do, it's just not something we're personally comfortable with, so may not be a problem for future families she works for.

I hug and am affectionate to the children I nanny for, —most of the time— I don’t kiss them though. Is she British? I only ask because I know it can be a lot more normal to be more tactile/kissy in other cultures and backgrounds, and maybe being more open to talking about what others may regard as personal or private things.

But clearly it’s not working out at all and you seem to be being very fair in terminating the employment.

Do it!

I would say kissing, cuddling and physical affection is quite normal for a nanny relationship, yes. My nanny kisses and cuddles my kids all the time. It's an in loco parentis job, not a teaching job, and loving her charges is part of what makes a nanny good.

You can ask a nanny not to use certain physical expressions of affection, but you need to make that boundary clear, and you need to not expect the kind of physical distancing you'd get from a teacher or tutor. It's an intimate relationship, effectively. Oversharing personal business is annoying, but not misconduct. You're an employer and you need to manage the relationship as such. She's not a mind-reader, she's a person, and a good nanny is effectively part of the family. You kind of seem to have expected a "professional" robot.

You can dismiss her but none of this really amounts to gross misconduct so you should pay notice, in my amateur opinion.

It doesn’t sound like anything she has done is terrible, just that you have failed to manage/direct her.

But yes, you can just give her notice and pay her. You don’t need to give a reason - you could say “not a good fit” or something.

Is there any probation period in the contract? There usually is and it usually has a shorter notice period.
If there is not, then yes you would follow what is written in the contract for termination. Pay in lieu of notice, talk to payroll about how soon they can get the payslip and P45 produced, I expect that could happen within a week so payment could be made then rather than end of month.

If she's only been employed 2 months, most standard nanny contracts would have this as probation and only 1 week's notice is required in this case. Have you overlooked this, or is it not included?

She sounds like a right PITA, but there's nothing inherently wrong with kissing/hugging. However it is important to stress to both your child and other care givers that you don't ASK for physical affection, and a child has a right to give it.

Are you in the UK? I just ask because ‘personal day’ isn’t a term I’ve heard used here and so I wonder if you are overseas which would mean different laws.

If you employ a Nanny again you need to be clearer in your expectations. None of them seem unreasonable but no one can be expected to guess what they are.

is he from another country.
often social norms differ.
did you get her through an agency.
what is a personal day, is it like duvet day, an extra day off to rest ?

On the kissing issue..I've been a nanny for 30+ years and have certainly been affectionate with some charges.. Some! An 8 year old boy, after only 8 weeks? I don't think so unless of course he instigated it. .That's before you think about the covid situation..

Insisting on multiple kisses when he's in the bath.. Wrong too.

Patting an 8 year old on the bare bottom. .NEVER! Not even a baby/toddler who wasn't my own..

I'm not surprised you are uncomfortable..

The other stuff is probably your fault for not nipping it in the bud. (said gently!}.

Let go..

nannies do kiss children in their care but dont usually ask to be kissed back

maybe she is trying to shoe affection as he has sn

tho the patting bottom is weird

maybe she is lonely and wants to chat as you are home

then again its hard ignoring employers as well if sitting on sofa you want to make small talk

i dont think she has done anything too wrong

but you need to set boundaries

like others have said, showing affection is quite normal for nannies. i hug/kiss etc the little ones in my care. i wouldnt be asking for one though, esp if i knew the child is vulnerable and unable to say no. also, at 8yrs i prob wouldnt automatically be physically affectionate with them if only been there a short time(obv its different if have been there for a long time) unless they instigated it. and i wouldnt pat an 8yr old on bare bottom. but i think you just need to have a chat

@Maisiesaves

Yeah, this has been a learning curve for sure.

This behaviour has escalated in the last week or so, ever since she took a personal day. We were clear from the start that we are a professional household, covered all aspects of professional working and confidentiality etc. I didn't think saying don't kiss our son or pat him on his bottom would be something that needs to be made explicit either? Is that typical Nanny behaviour? She's also a qualified teacher and worked as a teaching assistant in a special needs school so we expected she would conduct herself in the same manner as she would when working in those settings.

Do I need to give a reason or just say we no longer require your services and will pay you your notice instead of you working it?

As a nanny, hearing about her behaviour is shocking.

With the chatting and personal boundaries thing a colleague of mine at a nursery I used to work at would always do this!! I would be minding her ratio of children whilst she’s intently having a conversation about her alcoholic landlady. If the children would interrupt her (even to ask for help etc), she would say don’t be so rude I’m talking. unprofessional!
She had a reputation as being wholly useless other than when you order her around. I worked in the baby room so was very difficult to order someone to change the smelly nappy whilst you yourself are putting another to sleep, so not in the room.
Nightmare!! Not sure why she was hired/ kept on.

@mooncakes

But yes, you can just give her notice and pay her. You don’t need to give a reason - you could say “not a good fit” or something.

Maybe being honest about the reasons for dismissing her, would help her in her next position. Also for you as an employer she may be able to explain some of her actions/ thinking behind it and you can alter your recruitment/ contract whatever to find the right nanny for you.

@Alexandernevermind

Boundaries have been overstepped because you have allowed them to be. As your employer each time she does something wrong you must correct her, if you don't correct her whilst you are there then she will assume she is doing nothing wrong. There is no point simmering in silence. Sack her if you don't feel comfortable, but without clear boundaries with your next nanny, you will be in exactly the same position again.

They won't be in the same position again because any professional nanny will know all them thing are totally inappropriate and should never be happening. You should not need to point these things out. You are doing the right thing op and not your fault !!