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Paid childcare

Discuss everything related to paid childcare here, including childminders, nannies, nurseries and au pairs.

Nannies, corona virus and furloughing

29 replies

Pidgythe2nd · 03/04/2020 16:01

There are a lot of threads on this and didn’t want this ‘gem’ to be lost.
It’s from a Nanny Agency (not mine, I don’t use an agency), but it rings true to me. Having seen the ‘hysteria’ on some online nanny groups (& now the chat about what they should watch next on Netflix now they are either refusing to work, or have been furloughed) I think this would be wise for them to read. (Long...sorry, but sensible, impartial advice).
We love our nanny, don’t want to lose her, but WE CANNOT WORK FROM HOME with 3 young children, so if she doesn’t come in, I will take unpaid leave and we cannot pay her.

‘ If every employer of a Nanny, (obviously only one if both parents present) were to stand down from their employment because they are needing to care for their own children in the absence of their Nanny, we will be in a very poor situation at the end of all of this. Many high end employers are not able to work with their children running free around the house and like the rest of us are probably finding it very stressful having to be confined to the home. They will be mostly playing into their employers hands when they ask to be furloughed themselves and if refused (which i understand is happening a lot due to limited cash flow in companies) they have no option but to resign. When we all return to normal it is not going to be a case that every office, restaurant, bar, cafe, shop etc is simply going to open their doors as usual. Depending on the length of time this goes on for it we may have reached an economic crisis where at the end of it many Nannies will find themselves with no choice but to head back to a Nursery environment to continue with their career in childcare. This will be due to the high salaries that employers need to earn to be able to afford a Nanny. When speaking with Ofsted, Morton Michel and other childcare organisations Nannies are in a privileged position being able to still go to one place of work (unfortunately if a Nanny holds two part time jobs in one week they are required to choose which family to continue working for), the place of work that they have been going to for x number of months / years. If both parents are working from home and not leaving their property for anything other than food provisions and their once daily exercise with members of their household only, it is the family that are taking the biggest risk allowing their Nanny to continue coming into the house to work. They are taking this risk because they don't have a choice not to work) The Nanny is being trusted to simply travel from their own property to their employers property and back again.

Appreciating the government stance of ‘stay at home’ unless absolutely necessary – where necessary does include ‘travelling to and from your place of work, only where absolutely your work cannot be done from home, in addition to being mindful of safe social distancing as much as possible’. Over the past week there have been numerous conflicting pieces of advice about what nannies should do. The decision about should a nanny go to work or not is a decision which must be reached between the employer and employee, with each party taking responsibility for their own welfare. Employers have a duty of care to their employees.

We cannot stress enough please do not simply stop going to work! If you make the decision to not go to work without discussing and agreeing with your employer, you are running the risk of being in breach of contract and you are unlikely to be paid. You must communicate with your employer & agree a plan of action. Try and get agreement in writing - ideally with an email or letter. We are encouraging serious discussions to be had between you and the family to ascertain what measures of social distancing are being followed and ascertaining if your journey to work is essential, avoiding the use of public transport.

If the employer decides that you are required to go to work, and you do not feel comfortable doing so you can request to take unpaid or annual leave. This requires written agreement between parties. Should you come to an agreement with your employer to be furloughed, your employer is required to continue to pay you 80% (capped at £2’500 gross per month) of your wage and you should stay at home for a determined period of furlough. It is our understanding that furloughing is arranged in blocks of three weeks at a time and the maximum time the government are refunding for is currently three months although this may be extended. Your employer is required to have the cash flow to do this as they will not be refunded by the HMRC until the system is set up. The HMRC are setting systems up at the moment to facilitate this and payments will be refunded directly to the family, timescales expected to be around end of April to early May 2020, though the timescales may change.

If a nanny does furlough, the family need to confirm in writing the particulars of how the employment will continue, for example holiday will still be accrued, pension payments will still need to be paid etc. The payroll company will be able to assist with information on processing the changes and reclaiming the rebate from HMRC in due course.’

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ChainsawBear · 03/04/2020 16:06

unfortunately if a Nanny holds two part time jobs in one week they are required to choose which family to continue working for

Can you clarify where this requirement has come from? Not questioning it, just wanting to know the basis.

Pidgythe2nd · 03/04/2020 16:42

I presume this is to avoid the mixing of 2 families. I’ve not seen this stated within any guidelines, but a lot of nannies are indeed choosing one to continue working for.

I’ve included the whole communication from the agency for completeness.

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Cjw73 · 03/04/2020 20:01

I work for 2 families and as long as I am employed by both, which I am , under PAYE then both can furlough me.

Hugglespuffed · 05/04/2020 15:23

@Pidgythe2nd which nanny groups have you seen the hysteria on please?

I don't think there has been a rule for a nanny to choose who to work for. I've gone down to 1 family from 4 but not through my choice. They are furloughing me. Working part time for them all means that they can manage their work between the parents throughout the week rather than on just the days I have their children.

Nannies are trying to support each other at this time because we don't have coworkers or HR or anything like that. I'm happy to work but the fact of the matter is, it would be really stupid of me to continue working for 4 families. It is unprecedented times. So many nannies are being sacked because the parents won't furlough them. Even though it won't cost the parents anything to furlough.

Bonkers1234 · 05/04/2020 15:53

@huggles actually it may mean the parents paying income tax on the grant so it may well be far from being without cost

ilovewinterpansies · 05/04/2020 16:06

@hugglespuffed employers can only furlough if the nanny is temporarily redundant.

So if a nanny wants furlough pay but the employer still needs a nanny that doesn't work.

Bonkers1234 · 05/04/2020 16:20

@ilovewinterpansies I wonder what counts as “needing” a nanny? I’m really struggling to WFH without her but technically can of course juggle in the short term. Certainly not easy to put it mildly but possible. I am worried about furloughing only for HMRC to refuse to pay for whatever reason in 3 months time. Where does that leave employers though?

ilovewinterpansies · 05/04/2020 16:28

@Bonkers1234 I'd say you need a nanny. If your performance is lacking then your employer would be within rights to performance manage you out.

Do you agree?

I don't "need" a nanny either to keep my kids safe and to work a bit (ie dip in and out of emails) but I do need one if I'm going to work as is expected of me. Without a nanny I'm functioning at 30% productivity.

Appreciate that my assessment is not a legal definition but to be honest there are so many ramifications of new govt policy and not all are clear and defined - we all need to take a common sense view.

You need a nanny if you can't perform your job at 100%. Which to my mind means if you needed a nanny in the first place, it means you need one now.

ilovewinterpansies · 05/04/2020 16:29

Ps it alarms me how much nannies believe that parents wfh means a nanny is not needed. I value a nanny's work and contribution hugely - it's not just being a warm body around the children!

SeasonallySnowyPeasant · 05/04/2020 16:32

Why don’t parents who need a nanny to be able to work from home just juggle like everyone else? Confused

Bonkers1234 · 05/04/2020 16:36

We are!

Bonkers1234 · 05/04/2020 16:37

@ilovewinterpansies what will you do with your nanny?

ilovewinterpansies · 05/04/2020 16:39

@SeasonallySnowyPeasant because if I had to "juggle" (your words not mine) I would fail and have to take unpaid leave = give notice to my nanny = two people out of work where it's not necessary (in my situation where our nanny drives and it's a closed loop of contact because both households aren't going out/in key worker jobs with external contact).

I can understand that many other households/nannies have different circumstances and where it's justified that employers/nannies don't want to continue with the usual arrangement.

But not every situation is the same. I do find the blunt instrument approach quite unhelpful.

Sally872 · 05/04/2020 16:40

School and nursery are shut, we are not key workers. We both work from home full time with young children. We take turns, start early, work evenings and cover the school work in the middle. There is no nanny, the kids need supervision and the work needs done.

Hugglespuffed · 05/04/2020 16:40

To be fair, the payroll companies are saying to furlough instead of sack. I guess it depends how serious everyone takes this.

@ilovewinterpansies not all of us think that though.

Many of us want to work.

Bonkers1234 · 05/04/2020 16:42

@huggles they would say that otherwise they lose a client too!

Bonkers1234 · 05/04/2020 16:43

Also it’s not the payroll companies out of pocket if HMRC deny funding, its the parents.

ilovewinterpansies · 05/04/2020 16:44

@Hugglespuffed yes sorry I know not all nannies think the same in terms of parents being able to juggle.

It's just that some seem to think that it's doable - of course we can all struggle on but i find it staggering that some nannies think they become redundant when parents are at home. Work is work: it's not just being present! My nanny is incredible and works so hard....there's no way I can do my job and hers at the same time.

ilovewinterpansies · 05/04/2020 16:52

@Bonkers1234 my nanny and I have had a grown up conversation about what to do and we've agreed that because we trust each other and our partners 100%, continuing contact means that we are no worse off than before (ie before the lockdown where frankly it was way more likely that we'd all get it).

None of the 4 of us (both couples) do many shopping trips. We combine shopping outings/orders. We don't go out at all other than usual exercise (we don't take the kids out). We're all fastidious about washing hands etc.

Also I have 3 children - we've agreed the 2 school aged children are still my and my husband's responsibility so she's only looking after the toddler. I guess that also makes a big difference. I can generally work with them but having the toddler off my hands makes my life infinitely easier.

So our assessment is the risk is very minimally increased by continuing. We've both been reasonable in the circumstances and it's all working out ok at the moment.

Pidgythe2nd · 05/04/2020 18:15

@Sally872 that does sound tough and I get it as we’re doing it too, but at risk of making a huge generalisation here, I’d say that often it’s parents with either 2 + children, or with demanding jobs (who cannot ‘juggle’) and cannot use nursery/wrap around care options, that opt to use a nanny. Obviously not in all cases, but for us, and the other people I know that is true.
In any case, I don’t really understand the position that ‘we’re doing it, so should they’.
This is a common theme on the nanny forums. Also, interested to know if you’re still having to pay for your nursery? I’ve heard mixed things.

@Hugglespuffed I’ve looked at a few, and it’s the same on both. Have now left as wasn’t useful (Which was why I joined months ago) and frustrated me further tbh. Eg.
How terrible/unethical/law breaking/selfish their employer is for actually wanting them to come to work as both parents are at home (working), totally inaccurate information, egging each other on into a sense of unfairness and entitlement, questions about PPE... you’d think they were front line medics working with people testing positive!!

I’m totally with you @ilovewinterpansies ... do these nannies think they are totally redundant because the parents are at home?! Scary! As you said, I cannot do my job and our nanny’s job so one is suffering... actually both!

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grandmasterstitch · 06/04/2020 11:32

I think unless parents are key workers then they should furlough their nanny. Yes you might find it more difficult to work from home with no childcare but that's the reality for most of the country right now. I'm so grateful my employer values me enough to furlough me and keep me (and her family) safe. Nannies can't work 2m away from their charges so therefore they shouldn't be at work (unless they work for key workers in which case they should be)

MissyEllyPants · 06/04/2020 12:00

I don't think there is any entitlement, pidgy. There is fear. People are dying! This is not about nannies being lazy arses, this is about people wanting to protect their health and the health of those in their households.
I have my own child underlying health issues and elderly parents living with me. If I go to work, I risk the health of all of them. I appreciate it must be incredibly tough to work and look after your own children, impossible sometimes, but I think health trumps all.

Hugglespuffed · 06/04/2020 12:17

Thank you!!! That is exactly it. I don't think any nanny should be made to feel bad/ lazy for caring about their own or others health.

Some of the messages I've seen on this thread about nannies have been really quite hurtful and it is seriously making me question my job. I'm lucky to work for families who are now friends but it just feels as if we aren't respected.

Hugglespuffed · 06/04/2020 12:21

And making jokes about a nanny choosing to protect themselves with PPE is terrible. So what if a nanny wants to protect themselves? It has been said hundreds of times that many people are asymptomatic with the virus so how would you know if you or your child had the virus?
We have been told to stay indoors other than going out for essentials, exercise or work..and when we do go out to work we should remain 2 metres away from others. So if a nanny chooses to wear a mask then I don't think it should be laughed at should it? They may be protecting themselves or others, for example if they go to a supermarket.
I went to asda yesterday and there were loads of people of all ages wearing a mask.

Pidgythe2nd · 06/04/2020 13:28

@grandmasterstitch wow, some sweeping statements there, again, many incorrect or based on opinion alone. Where are you getting these definitive answers/responses from?! Need I ask.
Your point about key workers in incorrect as far as I can see. I’m using the gov. Website.

Nannies cannot work from home, so CAN go to work. The 2m is a guidance where possible!! Again, see attached a letter I literally just received from no.10 itself!

The risk of a nanny entering a single household which has been social distancing/self isolating is very minimal. As was the whole point of this thread... this is what is explained in the communication sent out by the agency, and the request that nannies think about these risks and counter with risks of redundancy/long term unemployment etc.

@Huggle how is shopping in Asda with goodness knows how many extra people comparable to going into a single household that have been self isolating for over 2 weeks?! It’s not.
And sorry that you’ve been made to question your career, but on numerous occasions you’ve quite openly suggested or supported comments whereby anyone wanting their nanny to work is either selfish, disrespectful or non appreciative of their nanny. Anything but!!
I’d say we appreciate everything they do.. so much so we can openly admit we can’t do the same whilst holding down another job. I’ve made a risk assessment and it seems to be the risk for both parties is so small.

@MissyEllyPants in your situation you are absolutely right not to work. With elderly or high risk people in your household, you shouldn’t be mixing and would be seen as an exception to the general rule.

Nannies, corona virus and furloughing
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