Self employed nanny

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I recently left my job as an employed nanny and have found 2 families wanting a nanny who is self employed. As far as I knew this was fine, two or more families meant a nanny can be self employed but on further reading it seems like it's 3 or more families. Can anyone enlighten me? I think if I insist on being employed I'll find I don't have a job at all

Number of families is irrelevant really as a business has to have (or intend to have) many clients over a period of time. I think a lot of confusion over the 3 families thing is to do with Childcare law where a childminder is someone who cares for the children from three or more families.

Mutuality Of Obligation is the main thing I would look at. Although no one factor is used to determine employment status, thus one is very important as it is about the relationship between the parties.

Someone who provides a service does so without the service user being obligated to ever use that service again. Think of it this way; you ask a plumber to fix a leak, they fix it, you may never see that plumber again.

In a childcare context a babysitter is running their own small business providing a service. Parents use the service when they need it and when it suits the babysitter to accept the booking. The parents may book that babysitter again in the future or they may not, they are not under any obligation to book that babysitter again and the babysitter is not under any obligation to work for that family again.

A nanny is therefore an employee as they are contracted to work specific days/times and are doing so on a very regular basis. It is more than having a babysitter who is rebooked repeatedly as both parties concerned view each other as being obligated to provide/do the work. The nanny cannot simply say they are not coming in, or don't want to keep doing the work. The parents cannot simply tell the nanny not to come in any more.

Running a business you would be doing a one off job for a client, it could be just one day, a couple of days (I am working this weekend for a family via my business), or maybe a week. If it became many weeks then it could become employment.

So look at each bit of work being done, is it occasional without any obligation to provide the service? If so then it may be you providing a client with a service.

It's not to do with the number of employers but the nature of the role. If you have fixed hours and responsibilities as a nanny then you are likely employed. You are self employed if you offer an ad hoc service like baby sitting or night nannying where you work for many employers, set the terms of your employment and can turn down work. It is up to your employer to get this right as they face fines and penalties if they don't.

Ok so I will have fixed hours which means I can't be self employed? The 3 families thing did confuse me. This puts me in a pretty difficulty situation as I'm meant to be starting soon and I gave her the option of employing me when I interviewed (assuming at the time that I could be self employed with the two families) and she definitely doesn't want to employ me

Is it very clearly employment such as fixed hours, several days per week, every week and you can't cancel at short notice? If so then it really is employment and the parents should look at employing you and doing payroll. If it is say £200 a week of value then there won't be much employers NI involved so the cost to the family is the payroll admin and providing holiday pay, plus other statutory payments if they occur (SSP, SMP, Redundancy pay).

They may not want to employ you due to not knowing the costs, so have the costs calculated.

Thanks @nannynick it's not even that much, I think it's £156 a week. I did all the calculations, gave them all the info about childcare vouchers and nanny pay but they just don't want to employ me

£8112 a year if working all year, so no Employers NI, no automatic enrolment in pension scheme (though you could opt in).

Why do they feel you should not have employment rights? Would they be telling an adult daughter of theirs to take work where there are no employment rights.

I do a one day per week job where I am paid a bit over that but not much over and the parents employed me with a one week notice on both sides - so if the issue is that they might want to stop the job quickly that could be agreed in the contract by having a very short notice period.

@nannynick I don't think that's in the issue - in the contract they've given me it states a 28 day notice period. I think they've just decided it's easier for me to be self employed which I get but if I can't be then that's how it is. Unfortunately might find myself out of a job

If they have given you a contract then they are the employer. They can't give you a contract and say they are not the employer. If you were running your own business you would be giving them your terms of business, you would be calling the shots not them.

Does your contract stipulate holiday pay ? 5.6 weeks per year?
They are probably trying to get out of paying you holiday, stay sick pay, etc.
Look for another job.

@Cora1942 no as far as I'm aware I only get paid for what I work. I emailed her today with a link explaining why I can't be self employed, hopefully she will employ me instead

Dear God don't work for those people. They are determined to flout the law to their benefit and your expense.

I wouldn't work for them even if they did agree to be your employer, they will undoubtedly stiff you/abuse your goodwill as much as they can.

You need to go back to the drawing board. If you are working regular hours set by the parents on a regular basis in their home, you are an employee, and they need to test you as such and provide you with holiday pay, pension contributions, and pay your tax and NI.

@CmdrCressidaDuck I get where you're coming from but jobs round here aren't easy to find and as of Monday I'm out of work so I really need this job. I did insist on being paid more considering I wouldn't get holiday pay (back when I thought it was fine for me to be self employed)

These people are taking flagrant advantage of you to flout the law. I cannot abide scum like this.

I doubt they're going to agree to employ you though, or if they do you will have to chivvy them every step of the way to meet their basic obligations and pay you. You would probably spend much less time and energy lining up a different job on a legit basis than trying to get this one on the straight and narrow. I'd think about approaching e.g. an emergency nanny agency or posting on local FB saying you've got short notice availability for nannying. Some people may have had their back to school childcare fall through last minute.

They may not want to to employ you but legally they need to

Why don’t they want to

Is it then you will have rights. Sick pay. Smp holidays pension etc

I sent an email explaining why I can't be self employed with a link to a website but not had a response. I see where people are coming from with finding a new job but I live in a small village in the north, not too many people round here want nannies and I really need the money. Assuming I get paid at the end of the month she has a few weeks to sort it out so it's up to her, if she doesn't then she'll be stuck for childcare. It's just not the start to a new job I wanted really

If you’re self employed, you provide the contract

You dictate the terms and conditions not them

They know they should be employing you and are just trying it on

Just an update on this. I emailed her explaining and included a link because I still don't fully understand it all. She was absolutely fine and has signed up to nannypaye this week

That’s good :)