Help. My CM's turned into a Nanny

[lilyfire]

After lots of traipsing the children in and out of various CM's homes looking for someone suitable, we found someone who seems lovely and signed all the bits etc a few weeks ago.Of course nothing's ever that simple. She's phoned me to say that she and her husband have decided to move, so she can no longer do childminding at home, but she would be prepared to nanny for us, in our home, for the 2 days a week we'd agreed she'd care for the boys. I think this could work really well for the children, but does this mean that I have to employ her and do her tax, NI etc, or is it possible she can still be self-employed and so on the same financial terms we'd agreed originally? Any ideas gratefully received.

I'm no expert on this sort of thing at all but I think you DO have to employ them as they can't be a childminder if they are working from your home.

They can'tbe a cm but nothing stops her changing her title to nanny. I was a self employed nanny for 10 years before I started childminding so maybe that is an option. Don't forget you may have to pay her a bit more for her travelling to you and also take into account if she was going to provide all food or you were going to have to send some. Also if she is 'nannying' on childminder wage I don't think you will find she will do the housework involved with nannying. Best advice I can give you is to redo the contract and state clearly if she will be doing housework or anything different to childminding.

OFSTEDoutstanding did you have any problems with tax office in describing yourself as a self-employed nanny? The book I have suggests that it's really hard to justify a self-emp description for a nanny. The area I live in is v competitive for cm's (in that there aren't many and they can charge quite a lot - £60 a day is not unusual) so we'd agreed a wage which was perhaps more like a nanny's. I wouldn't dream of asking her to do any housework, it would be total childcare. Would it be likely to avoid tax problems if we include this in contract?
thanks v much

Nannies are generally Employees, it is very rare for them to be self employed. If you are wanting someone two days per week, for fixed hours, and you only want them, rather than someone else they may supply, then my view is that you would be employer and they are employee.

This came up on Mumsnet a while back, there are several threads which raise this query. I would suggest reading Nanny offering to work for no tax as in that thread Ladymuck describes a situation where a nanny WAS self-employed, plus there is a lot of discussion about employment status, and some possibly helpful weblinks.

no a childminder can ask for approval to work in client's home without being a nanny .. ensuring that she is still self-employed and you are not liable for tax and NI .. you will need to find out from her if she's willing to do this though

Nannynick - thanks v much will check out the threads.
Twiglett - thanks as well. do you mean she would have to ask the inland revenue for permission to describe herself as self-employed?

No I never had any problems at all at describing myself as a self employed nanny to the tax office and just submitted my tax return at the end of the year like all self employed people do. I would definitely put something in to the contract to state that the cm is self employed and therefore responsible for her own tax.

I might be making it up .. but I'm sure I heard that its an ofsted thing

I think maybe cms might know

Twiglett may well be right about that one... it would be Ofsted who the CM would need to ask. Put simply, the CM would register as a CM working for a premises which they did not own. The premises must still be classed as residential, so the CM could register with Ofsted to CM from your home. However, I think it would be like a new registration, so could take some time for Ofsted to sort out the paperwork and come and inspect YOUR home, which would need to meet all childminding requirements. Also, the childminder in order to be registered should be willing to accept other children, from other families. In reality they may not fill the vacancies, but if the CM told Ofsted that they would not accept anyone else, then that may cause problems. So having a Childminder operate from YOUR home, may not be ideal.

In my view, HMRC would look at the individual job arrangement, thus it is quite possible for people to be both self-employed and employed at the same time, doing two different jobs. I feel it may boil down to your relationship - Is there a master / servant relationship? Is someone able to tell someone else what to do?

Anyone know for sure if Ofsted are even able to process a CM registration where the premises is different to the CM's own home? In theory I think the legislation permits it, but I am not sure if Ofsted have the ability to do it. Anyone got a CM1 form handy? Is there separate space on it for the premises address?

you'll have to pay her tax
if she is coming to you 2 days a week, she is an employee
the only nannies the tax people accept as self employed are those who only work on a very ad hoc basis for you (ie some weeks nothing), or those with you on a very short term fixed contract, in particular maternity nurses

just sign up with nannytax or one of those, it isn't particularly difficult (but costs a little bit - about 150-200 pa from memory)

Lilyfire, what exactly will your CM/Nanny be doing? You say it is two days per week... is that fixed hours, such as say 8am to 6pm? Are they fixed days? Is it every week, or just say one week out of every 4?

Nannynick - have just read the previous thread about nanny offering to work for no tax, which was v comprehensive. i think it would be hard to say she will be self-employed. she will work mon and weds from 8.30 -6pm (although i could put in the contract that there could be some flexibility about hours/days on a weekly basis if agreed on both sides). she said would bring her own food for the children (as she would have fed them when cm). her son goes to local school and i haven't yet spoken to her about whether she would like him to come here after school, but i wouldn't have a problem with this and it could go in the contract, but don't suppose this quite amounts to not exclusively caring for my children.
thanks

Nanny nick is right

Im THINK you can be a childminder working from another adress (ie yours).... means your house will HAVE to meet the same criteria as a childminders, stairgates, heath and safety, and that she will HAVE to follow the education guidelines etc.... as she would in her home.

2 (or was it 3?) years ago they changed the criteria so other than in very very rare circumstances a nanny can NOT be self employed!...
it means you as an employer are avoiding paying YOUR employer NI contributions anc can therefor be fined accoridngly...

presumable if you were happy to have your home inspected, and full fill childminder regulations.... AND for your childminder to ONLY do childminder duties... (and maybe mind anotehr child?) she could register as a CM from your adress