CM Club - 3yr old mindee won't say please & thankyou

[princesscc]

Actually she doesn't even have a conversation with me. She talks very well, but it's parrot fashion. If I try to start a conversation she just looks around blankly and then says something like 'I've got pink shoes'. So I think, I'll try it the other way round, so when she says 'I've got pink shoes', I say and what colour shoes have I got? She says nothing. She says everything she should be saying at 3, knows colours, few numbers etc., but she just does not interact. The most annoying thing is the manners. I'll ask her if she wants a drink and she just stares at me. I give her things and i say 'what do you say' and she will not say a thing! I've tried all the tricks - good girls say this - look what mindee2 has got, coz she said please and ta etc etc. I am almost at breaking point. Obviously spoke to mother, she says nursery teacher told her it was what 3 year olds do. I'm sorry, but i've got a 18mth mindee who doesn't need telling and I've done this job for long enough to know that 3 year olds should have manners by now. Mum & Dad both think its funny, grandma thiks its funny, I DO NOT anymore! I thought it was just me, but parents say she's always like it - what do I do next? Any ideas?

It's taken me since September with one little one aged 3 and today at her initial visit to nursery teacher said, what lovely manners she has.
I know and agree it's not the MOST important thing but it does create a good impression. I hate it if people don't say thank you to me if I make a cuppa, for example.
(wish I was tired and emotional but I'm just a little blue.)

what you describe about this child's speech and inability to hold a conversation is ringing a lot of alarm bells. and if this child does have a speech delay or other SN then more patience and different techniques from normal may well be required to coax this child into giving the normal social responses.

what to do next - surely childminders have some procedure/training for cases of suspected special needs? otherwise suggest that the parents speak to HV/seek SALT referral.

Princesscc, i empathise with you totally..i have a mindee who although doesnt have the same problem, had similar and was also violent.
I too was told i 'didnt like' this child and felt pretty shitty, i came on for advice on what to do and was told i should give notice as i obv didnt like her????!!!!

my mindee now always say thankyou, almost always says please and is much better than she was then.people actually comment on it.

i dont think you are nasty for giving something to one child and not antoher, my dd doesnt get a treat if she behaves badley nor do any of my mindees, if they doeat their meal and say please and thankyou, they can have the world.

i understand its not a hang up on you behalf, simply you trying to 'teach' this LO good manners and asking for some advice on what to do.
you have now extablished she 'may' have SN, so you'll have to keep an eye, dont mention it to parent until you are adament that is the case as this will create problems.
you can 'try' and speak to them again and explain you may think it's concerning..but tbh, they sound immature and unhelpful towards the childs development...not saying please and thankyou isnt the end of the world, ybut you have noticed other communication behaviour and thats all part and apsrcel..good luck

and FWIW, id DP doesnt say thankyou if i do something for him, i tell him off as i have taught our dd, lovely manners, so he should show her its something we all do, maybe her parent sdont say it much?

I agree with you that she should be making the effort to say please and thank you. I insist my own children say it so when mindees are here they do too, its usually my own children that pick the mindees up on it!!! I dont think it is unacceptable to expect a 3 year old to say it either, isnt that one of the first things they learn to say? Ta? Anyway I would say do stickers with her to see if you can get her to say it and sy to her if she has 5 by the end of day she gets a special treat or something tomorrow. I have a nearly 5 year old who doesnt say please and know how annoying that is, best of luck, you are not a shitty childminder you are someone trying to help this child learn basic skills which will carry her through life, something alot of adults could benefit from, sorry to go on, hope you have a good day today

While manners aren't necesssarily the most important thing, they're certainly not just superficial. Teaching please and thank you is not about parroting, it's about helping children understand about other people's feelings and interacting in a way that puts other people at their ease, and makes people find them nice to be around. I've started teaching DS to say please and thank you, though he's still not 2, and it's not because I'm a crazed manners-stickler, it's because he needs to learn to be pleasant and teat other people with respect - it goes hand in hand with teaching him not to snatch, or violently push away things or people he doesn't like, which is what toddlers tend to do before they learn manners. He is getting the hang of it and enjoys the positive response and encouragement he gets. So I think encouraging this in a child of 3 is totally reasonable. It does sound to me as if she may have a speech, hearing or other problem and the parents aren't taking the whole thing very seriously. A chidminder has every right to be frustrated, and to try to do something about it, IMO. What if she does have a speech delay, or something like ASD? The sooner it's detected, the better.

Thanks guys! I really appreciated that! Didn't have her today, but she will be with me tomorrow and tomorrow is an other day as they say...

Princesscc, your mindee's behaviour reminds me of when my DD used to REFUSE to say sorry, at age 3.

She would say absolutely anything but sorry, and didn't care how long she had to sit it out, how angry we got. She would say "I can't".

Me: Say Sorry
DD: Can't
Me: Say Sor
DD: Sor
ME: Say Ry
DD: Ry
ME: Say Sorry
DD: NO!

But she would say Lorry, Solly, Golly but would ot even let us trick her into saying Sorry for several weeks!

Eventually she started just saying it though!

Good luck

Actually, my ds was like this too thinking about it. He's VERY VERY stubborn!!! Not saying this is the problem but could be. I still, whatever the problen is, totally disagree with family members showing they find it funny! Just becomes a big game.

Good luck for tomorrow

My dd is 3y8m and doesn't always say please or thank you. I know she knows all about it. She knows I know she knows. Sometimes she forgets. Sometimes she deliberately won't say it. Sometimes it's a game. She hasn't got sn. I always say it when she asks (or I ask) for something or receives something. That's how she knows. As she gets older it's likely that she will say please or thank you. All my other children have. At 3 I don't consider it a big deal. I certainly wouldn't punish her or exclude her for not jumping through the social hoops at this point.

milliways/looneytune - but were your children able to hold a conversation at that age when they were refusing to say please or thank you?

just surmising but possibly the parents are seeking help for this child but don't wish to discuss this, and possibly that's why they seem to be making light of it. complete supposition on my part I suppose.

Princesscc - the talking parrot fashion has a technical name "echolalia" - you might find this info useful about helping teach vocab to your mindee:-

"Parents: Use the tendency to echo as a teaching tool.

When my son Kyle was in his early years of school, he often used immediate echolalia. If I asked, "Do you want to play outside?" He would reply, "Play outside?" I observed that Kyle usually used this kind of speech when he meant to say "Yes," or "I want that." Yet he would inflect his voice in the form of a question, exactly as I did. I knew that to an outsider, his intent would not have been understood. So I made many attempts to redirect his speech to help him answer correctly.

The method was to "play dumb," when he echoedeven though I knew what he meant and then provide him with two possibilities for answering correctly. For example, if Kyle answered, "Play outside?" I would make a confused look, then offer him two appropriate responses: "Yes, I want to go outside,' or 'No, I want to stay in.'" As I offered each choice, I either shook or nodded my head and pointed to outside or inside. Since he was already skilled at copying my speech, I was now modeling two possible correct answers, and he simply had to choose which one to echo. After many months of using this technique, Kyle's profound memory skills could take over, and he could recall what particular responses sounded like, and retrieve them from his "memory file." "

milliways/looneytune - but were your children able to hold a conversation at that age when they were refusing to say please or thank you?

just surmising but possibly the parents are seeking help for this child but don't wish to discuss this, and possibly that's why they seem to be making light of it. complete supposition on my part I suppose.

Yes he was. Forgot this one doesn't hold a conversation. I'm no expert, was just saying that my ds was like Milliways DD

My son has a severe language disorder, and tbh I don't give the remotest stuff about manners. The important thing is making himself understood.

This little girl sounds like she may well need an assessment tbh. Sounds like possibly something complex is going on. As a childminder might be good to model rather than push at all. If she's not getting it, she's not getting it. TBH if she does have a communication disorder than there are other things far more important to teach than manners.

This thread reminds me of why I would never ever use a childminder!

oh I don't know- ds1 was treated appallingly in a private nursery (because of his SN). His childminder is excellent (and PECS trained).

If she did have SN and was not interacting at all surely the nursery would've picked up on it by now?

I personally think teaching my DC to say please and thank you is the same as teaching them to hang their coats up rather than drop them on the floor, making sure they flush after going to the bathroom, making their beds in the morning. All the little things that make living together so much easier and manners is just a part of that. I don't ever punish them for not saying it but they do get a little raise of the eyebrow if they ask for a drink without saying it and that is usually prompt enough.

And as they get older and their friends start calling around for them or they come over after school I always like the ones with the nice manners more.

Umnn - there was that programme on bad nurseries wher they was a NN who tormented a child by not letting them have something because the child would not say please. Does anyone else remmeber that?

TBH honset I do think please and thank yous are important but I don't get cross if my children forget them. As long as you are modelling the behaviour you want and praising the other children for saying please "Oh XXX you said please beautifully" she will get it. She won't get it by punshiment - she is too little. And also if the parent's don't expect her to say please you are fighting a losing battle.

Her parrot conversations are more worrying. I would ask her parents what she is like at home and wether they need to take her to see the health visitor.

PLenty of children with significant special needs are not picked up for years. My own son who has a severe learning disability was not picked up until he was 3 (and he can't talk at all). Language disorders can be subtle and complex. Referals to SALTs frequently take a year.

sorry I should have clarified princesscc i am sure you are a very good CM and not at all like the NN in that programme She had lots of other faults...it just reminded me a litte of that.

Totally agree with cazzybabs! And yes, I saw a bit of that and it was awful!!!

agree completely traycee.

I'd don't believe princesscc is being like that person though!!

Message withdrawn

I'm sorry Tobysmumkent - I am sure that there are some good childminders out there - but threads like this do really make my mad.

I work with toddlers as a nanny and whilst I always encourage good manners and respect, I'm not fanatical about please and thankyous; it depends on the age of the child, for example I look after a two year old and yesterday he came running in from the garden saying "I really need a drink" - he's two, he can't just go get a drink for himself so why should I insist that he has to say please before he can have something that an older child or adult just takes for granted. He said "thanks" unprompted when I gave him the drink. Both him and his older brother are complimented on their nice manners whenever they go out for tea.

If children are spoken to respectfully and adults use good manners when talking to them, then most children (with some gentle prompting) will naturally mimic that.