Are my employers being unfair?

[JonasRose]

Hi everyone! I'm new to this so please bare with.. I've been a nanny to two lovely young boys for the past year and have got along well with the parents. I work 50 hours a week, although most weeks I end up staying late and bite my tongue every time without fail.
In September 2015 my dear Nan whom I was incredibly close to past away at the grand age of 89.. I was distraught by this and told my employers I needed some time to myself. Not including the day she passed away, I was given one day off paid. I suggested I would have liked more time but they went on about alternative childcare and their workloads to the point where I felt too bad to not come in. With bloodshot and puffy eyes I came in.

I have been ill over the year for just 4 days, (2 days on 2 different occasions) where I was hospitalised, and 3 days with a fractured ankle after which I ended up coming in on crutches for weeks with no complaints.

This Monday just gone my only cousin just 26 years of age passed away unexpectedly when some surgery went wrong and caused a horrendous infection in her body and blood. I was off on Monday at the hospital with my family and after she past away I let my employers know I needed some time to myself, to which they replied "Sorry for your loss. See you Wednesday." I was shocked and didn't reply until Tuesday afternoon when I informed them I was not ready just yet to come back so soon and apologised repeatedly for the inconvenience.. After this I received a long paragraph stating money difficulties in paying me for days off and paying for alternative childcare and that they would no longer be paying for any bereavement days off and no more SSP. Once again they also made a point of their workloads and now that I need to be on Thursday.

My sister is a nanny and her family have been much more accommodating and understanding. I suppose a second opinion is what I'm after. Thanks in advance!

I'm with your employer too.

Many companies don't allow holidays at certain times.

The fact that sometimes you don't have much to do because the dad is around is irrelevant.

Four days off in a year for sick leave sounds a lot to me.

You need to take any other time off as annual leave.

MrsFogi -
I am not asking for paid leave whilst I grieve, when I ask if they are being unfair I mean in terms of telling me when I should be back without giving me an option of annual leave.

I use these points to back myself up in terms of the fact I have been denied holiday regularly all with longer than 1 months notice which is stated in my contact. I have been appreciative when hospitalised and when my nan passed away for the time I had off (although there's nothing I could have done being in hospital) and have thanked them many times. I do a lot of over time and babysitting till early hours of the morning on Fridays and weekends sometimes.
I guess I would just like a bit of give and take and don't feel as though I should be made to feel bad for wanting time off, whether that be for a death or going away on holiday.

I think your relationship with your employer has started to break down with the result that you are both becoming less flexible with each other rather than more flexible. You need to decide if you want to stay in this job or find another one.

If you do want to stay in this job, then work out your leave entitlement for the year and plan out when you would like to take it. Then sit down with your employer - either of them - and take them through roughly when you'd like the holiday, and say that you know they'll need time to think about it and discuss it with each other.

So for example between Christmas and New Year is a reasonable request, and is quite far out. It may not be possible if their work is particularly busy then, but asking now means they have time to look at other ways of enabling you to have that time off. If not, at least you know now.

Likewise, if you want a week over the summer at all, you need to have that conversation now. If they have a summer holiday planned, then it would be sensible for you to have the same weeks off, and making that suggestion will help build bridges.

It's unlikely that they will want you to have any other time off over the summer, so bear that in mind and think about going away in June or September instead when the children are in school.

When discussing leave, you could also indicate that you assume the time taken off for bereavement was part of your annual leave (assuming they paid you as normal for it?). If you do this, then I think they will relax a bit more, and will see that you are trying to be flexible and helpful to them.

Even a month's notice for a week's holiday is short - so as others have said, try give much more notice if you can. If you do, and then want holiday for say a day at 2 weeks' notice, they will probably be much more willing to try and accommodate it.

Gazelda -

I do realise this completely and have apologised on the occasions when I was hospitalised. But unfortunately I could do nothing about this and wasn't something I chose or even wanted to happen. I would much rather be at work then ill in hospital.
I have never asked for SSP and wouldn't even dream of it, I was more than appreciative when they gave this to me whilst in hospital. On my Nans death, I had one day off and they payed this which I was also appreciative of.

I do not want anymore than I am already given. I am so thankful for my employers and we get along well. I am merely trying to ask for advice on whether my not being allowed holiday/annual leave because of my time off for sickness and deaths is reasonable and whether I should be made to feel bad when I am lying in a hospital bed or dealing with a loss.

OP, if they are reasonable people, then I'm sure they hold no grudge about paying you for when you were in hospital.

I think it's the time you've had off for bereavements that is the issue. You don't seem to get that the 5 days you've had off paid (if I'm understanding your original post correctly) is above the norm for indirect relatives' deaths. BTW, did this include funerals, or is that extra time you've needed off?

Apart from the leave requested for December, how many times have they refused you holiday? Have they actually said you can't have any, or are you just 'getting that feeling'?

I'm not trying to have a go at you, I'm just trying to understand the full picture and offer advice how you can move forward and all be happy with the arrangements.

I think you're being blinkered by the fact that the dad works from home. So he could easily do your job for you.

But I still don't think your employer has been unfair. Quite generous, in fact.

It's not your fault you've been hospitalised and had bereavements, but neither is it theirs.

Sort out until staying until the early hours etc, if it doesn't suit you

BlueStringPudding -

Thanks for your reply. This is really very helpful.
I have always given more notice than they initially said they required and what was stated in my contract. I have always gone by what is in my contract and what I was told when I took the job offer.
As for holiday I was told I have 10 days off of my own and they have 10 in which they are entitled to take at any time and will pay me in full. They even made a point in saying they know how expensive non termtime holidays can be and understand me wanting to take time off during term time but unfortunately it seems as everything I was told upon offer has never really been very true.

I am unsure at the moment where I want to go with staying or leaving but I think a chat is due either way. I love the boys and will be sad to leave them.

There are various issues here.

On holiday and working late if that is a problem then in the nicest possible way you need to grow a spine to sit down and have a sensible conversation. There are certain times in the year where it would be very hard to give our nanny leave but that doesn't mean if I was suddenly asked for a week on a months notice I could do it. But you do need to be able to find times and dates when you can.

I don't think they have been that unreasonable around bereavements to be frank. 3 days for a cousin is quite a bit. Plus a few days for your grandmother and 7 days off sick. I'd be grinding my teeth if I'd had to cover that often at short notice plus paying for 2x childcare Costs. And you will often seen posts on here about nannies having quite a bit of leave and people being advised to stop paying discretionary sick pay to make the nanny think about it more. If my nanny had taken 3 days for bereavement for a cousin and then wanted more by way of annual leave I'd have to look carefully at whether that was doable. And I've brought in temp nannies before now to facilitate my nanny going to funerals etc in the past. Tbh if one of my team at work was asking for more time off for a cousin it would also be something I'd be a bit surprised at.

To be really blunt you sound a bit sneery about the dad. I suspect his workload fluctuates and so he some quiet periods. In which case it is none of your concern if he grabs some sleep and I can understand wanting to see his kids when he has time. If the music is bothering you have a polite word at the time. Ultimately if this is not a job you want then you should look to move on.

The fact that dad WFH seems to have given you the view that they could be much more flexible that they are. I suspect his job is more pressured than you understand. And I'm not convinced from your posts that you have truly grasped (newish nannies often haven't) that your working consistently is vital to them being able to work and why you pay a premium for a nanny. You're not one of 100 people on a production line who can just be swapped in and out.

Hope you get things worked out.

Gazelda -

I know you're not having a go, you've been very helpful throughout this thread in fact and thank you for that. Some people have not been as helpful (or nice) which is unfortunate.

I had 2 days off on the day of and day after my Nans death and one for the funeral which they had plenty of warning for and were happy to find alternative care. I've had the day of my cousins death off (Monday) and yesterday Tuesday. Her funeral is set to be next Friday but as they have said anymore time off (in general) will not be paid for and that is fine. I do completely understand the time off paid for previously is above the norm and out of their own kindness and I am so grateful for this. I would never ask nor expect it to be paid time off even when I was in hospital.

While I was in hospital unfortunately I did get many texts saying that they're sorry I'm unwell but it's causing them massive inconveniences with money and childcare. I felt awful. At one point while I was sleeping, DB found my partner on a social media website by searching for me and asked him if he could get me to reply to the texts they had sent. I found this very inappropriate.

I have requested holiday in total 3 times but only mentioned December as they said that was due to the workload. Other times have been due to either not finding alt. childcare or them saying "we can't really work around that date unfortunately." I have always said it's not a problem.

Just feeling a bit like they think I purposely want time off to be in hospital or to grieve. I'd definitely rather be at work then to have had any of this happen!

TheClacksAreDown -

Thanks for your message.

You're right in saying I need to grow a spine, I'm fully aware of this and have been told numerous times by others I should speak up when unhappy with something instead of letting things slide.

I'm not asking for paid time off, never would I dream of it but if I suddenly turned around and said "actually ill be in tomorrow because you're not going to pay me anymore" it would be a bit fake wouldn't it? My sadness over my cousins death will not disappear if they threaten to not pay me for the time off and if it did then surely I wasn't really grieving in the first place? At such a sad time I could care less about the money. I'm accepting of them giving the alt. Childcarer all pay and leaving me out completely.

Not everyone deals with loss the same way, we are all different and I feel as though Im constantly apologising for needing time to grieve or even for when I was hospitalised.. This is not about the money, it's just about the way I'm made to feel when I've had time off.
When I was in hospital I was scared to contact them to let them know I wouldn't be able to make it in to work and I don't think that's very fair. I'd never take time off for a cold or silly things, it's only when I physically have been incapable of working.

Maybe I am a bit sneery about DB, I can admit that. But I would be just the same if I worked in a busy office somewhere and my boss didn't do much all day. It can be disheartening. I like to feel needed in my job and with DB capable of taking care of his kids more frequently then not I feel a bit like furniture.

Also, would just like to point out that I'm not a new nanny. I have been with this family for a year but this is not my first position and I completely understand my working consistently is vital.

Thanks again, I too hope things are worked out.

Hi everyone!

Unable to find if I can edit the OP but I just wanted to clear something up very quickly..
This post wasn't in regards to not being paid for my time off from now on, nor was it to suggest I should be paid for any time off. I would never and have never asked for SSP or paid time off for family death.

My point in this is just to gather opinions on whether I should be really be made to feel so bad on the occasions where I was hospitalised and right when someone has just passed away. I feel bad enough for not being there in the first place.

I would just like a little more understanding for the times I have had for grieving and being in hospital. I would much rather be at work then stuck on a ward so poorly or grieving a loved one. It's no one's fault here but just confused on how we should all deal with it. Thanks!

OP, you might have had a different response if you'd given this most recent information in you original post!

Of course it's not appropriate for them to harass you when you're in hospital. As long as you were keeping them informed about your likely return to work date, they should have left you alone. I don't blame you for feeling as though you've been treated badly on this issue.

I'm confused about the time you've had off for bereavement (your OP indicates 5 days but your recent posts suggest 4) but regardless, I don't think they've been unfair. 4/5 days is excessive. Yea, we all grieve differently, but as an employee you have a responsibility and should be able to minimise the impact your personal life has on your work.

Going forward I think you need to start speaking up for yourself, have a meeting to agree some holiday leave and ask for an appraisal to clarify duties, communications, extra hours worked etc.

If it helps, can you put your thoughts in a note or email and ask them to consider your requests before having a meeting in a weeks time?

whether I should be really be made to feel so bad on the occasions where I was hospitalised and right when someone has just passed away. I feel bad enough for not being there in the first place

If you were hospitilised you should have taken proper sick leave. And unfortunately while of course its very hard to lose family members, most people still have to go to work. If you felt bad perhaps its because you knew they were upset that you were taking time off for something that most people wouldn't even ask for?

They are allowed to be annoyed at you inconveniencing them with time off. But you control whether you feel bad about it, no-one else.

AndTakeYourPenguinWithYou -

I was given SSP when I was hospitalised. Sorry I'm confused as to what you're getting at there with that?
Of course people still have to go to work when family members pass away. Life doesn't stop for anyone. But I'm not going to have anyone tell me that "most" people wouldn't ask for one day off when an incredibly close relative passes on. I'm not suggesting a great, great, grandparent whom I have never met or not seen in the last 20 years.
In regards to them being allowed to be annoyed, of course they are entitled to their feelings. Just as I am entitled to feel a bit down when I am sick in hospital and am receiving repeated messages about how I'm causing massive inconveniences. I understand I am, but it's still not nice to be told repeatedly.. After all I didn't ask to fall in and be hospitalised and nor did I ask for anyone so close to me pass away but things happen.

I think I'd be a bit inhuman if I didn't feel bad after everything they've said to me.

Tbh you've drip fed here a bit.

If my nanny were hospitalised I certainly wouldn't be repeatedly texting to saying it as inconvenient and expensive. BUT I would legitimately expects be kept updated on when you were likely to be back so I could ensure I could make arrngemebts. All jobs would expect this. Sounds like you went a bit incommunicado (not ok) so I have a little bit of sympathy on then tracking down your do.

If by sap you mean statutory sick pay, this is paid at a flat rate after 3 days from memory and is not a Contractual benefit but a Statutory entitlement. Or did they pay your regular wages.

Fwiw my nanny'a contract says sap only but in practice I would pay full pay on discretionary basis.

More of a flood than a drip feed! you didn't say anything about the messages, or what they said to you.
People can only answer what you've told them, so if you don't mention the actual salient points, the answers are meaningless. Which is a waste of everyones time.

I think your getting a hardtime here.
When you return I would clear the air (or arrange a meeting) and see if holiday etc can be organised.... how long notice they need etc, what is a 'good' time.
Reading this makes me.glad I work as a teacher with understanding for being off. You sound like you have been through a lot recently.

I can see this from both sides really. I can understand why your employers are getting a bit grumpy about it, it's quite stressful to work out childcare cover at the last minute and to have had to do this 4 (?) times in the course of just a year must be difficult for them.

I also understand that sometimes these things come along one after another and it's not your fault, if they had happened over the course of two or three years they probably wouldn't think twice.

I have to book my holidays when my boss is quiet at work, if I have a special occasion (my dad's 70th birthday in June (a week off to take him holiday) and my first niece/nephew arriving in November) I try to give them as much notice as possible (more than 6 months in both cases) and they sort out other childcare arrangements. But if I wanted a holiday with a friend, I would say I want to go away in the next 3-4 months what weeks are good for you?

As others have said, I have rarely had time off sick and Have struggled into work sometimes when I really should have stayed at home! In 30 years I have taken 12 days off sick. It's Sod's law that the days you need off are days that DB cannot cover for you.

I would reply to them that you understand the pressure they are under to find cover but that you don't think you are capable to look after the children in your current state and that you feel that it's best all around that you take at least this week unpaid. When this has all blown over, tell them that you are owed holiday and that you would like to take a week off in the next three months and can they tell you which weeks work best for them.

Good luck. I hope it all works out and I'm so sorry for you loss.

but that you don't think you are capable to look after the children in your current state to your best ability and that you feel that it's best all around that you take at least this week unpaid.

I think your getting a hard time, 4 or even 5 days off in a 12 month period isn't a lot of sick leave.

in our work we get 2 weeks off for a bereavement for someone close in the family as a minimum, we can get another 2 weeks on top of that unpaid if needed, sick leave isn't questioned until you have had 3 instances off in a 12 months period - the length of time doesn't matter for each instance no matter if its 1 day or 1 month. If you are off sick you are expected to call in the day you are sick by 9am and depending on the reason for sickness you may be expected to call in daily or weekly e.g if your off because of a broken leg no one expects you to call in daily because it's common sense your leg isn't going to get better the next day and your going to be back at work.

Holidays we get when we want, leave is never refused. Overtime is paid all the time and is paid a month in arrears, you can ask for toil (time off in lieu) if that suits you, toil must be taken the same month as you have worked it. This is so peopLe cannot build up several weeks worth of toil then go off for weeks at a time.

I wouldn't expect an employer to harass you when you are off sick, switch your phone off if that's the case. Charge them for your time if you work over your contracted hours. If you ask for leave and they refuse ask for an alternative date or when you ask for leave give them two options expecting to get one of them. They should not be telling you how much alternative care costs them as its nothing to do with you - it's a form of harassment and bullying, they are trying to make you feel guilty.

The average sickness rate in the uk is 4.4 days per year with woman having more days off than men.

Public sector peggy?

Waaaay more generous than any job I have ever had.

peggy being a nanny is so far removed from the employment situation you've described.

So you want 6 days of leave in total for the two distant family members? Two days grieving for each, and another 2 days - 1 for each funeral, and you wanted a few extra for the cousin too as you weren't ready. I think that is very extreme and I can see why they are getting a bit fed up here actually.

So that's 6, more if they'd have let you, plus 4 days where you were in hospital, plus 3 days with your ankle.

You've had nearly 3 weeks off where they've had to find alternative childcare, that really, really is a lot. In less than a year?

No, of course it's not your fault you were in hospital, but I can see why they are starting to loose all goodwill.

I'm sorry but you're being a bit dramatic here with the grieving. No, you wouldn't be able to just not be sad anymore if you had to go to work. Nor would anyone. But you can't just not go to work if people are relying on you. You can still feel sad while going about your normal life. That's what we all have to do.

And being pestered in hospital is not great, no, but if you weren't replying they needed to know how long you were going to be off for, as they needed to sort alternative arrangements. If you had kept them informed then that wouldn't have been necessary.

It sounds like the relationship has broken down, you both feel the other is being completely unreasonable. You either need to have a clear the air discussion or go your separate ways.

Public sector peggy?

nope absolutely not, private company.