Nanny with attitude

[Mamafoof]

I would really appreciate some perspective here.

Our contract is pretty typical and states that nanny can choose when to have 10 days off and then we get to choose the remaining 10 days off - but in reality, she gets a lot more time off paid as we go on holiday often or take time off.

She told us she booked 15 days (so 3 weeks) off for holiday. I raised that she was only entitled to 10 but then we agreed to park it and possibly see how she could do extra hours to make up the 5 days if that was possible. I have since become pregnant and she will be leaving in a few months as we can't afford to keep her on during my maternity leave. We realised that it's not possible for her to work extra hours (5 days' worth) in her remaining time, so I said that we would need to deduct it from her salary - but we could split it across a few months so it wouldn't Impact her cash flow. I also agreed to see if we could think of when we could use her for babysitting. Since this conversation, she has been extremely off-ish. Barely looking at me in the eye, hardly speaking and trying to avoid me at all costs. I think she has been fine with the children but it has really put a downer on things and I almost dread seeing her now as the tension is quite awkward and I don't want to feel like this every time I leave or return the kids. I think she probably thinks we are being unfair with holiday but it's really a lot of money that we can't afford to spare. We are very fair employers, giving her lots of time off when we can, letting her go early. We also give her £20 a week to spend on food plus she helps herself to our food and we were very generous on her birthday. Overall, she is a good nanny but her attitude has really spoiled things. She often slags off her previous employers which I thought was a little unprofessional and has made little comments about parents in general.

Am I being unreasonable re holiday? Too sensitive re her attitude? I almost want her to go now but she is struggling to find another job. Also, do I mention attitude problem in her reference or leave it as otherwise she is a good nanny?

Thanks for reading. Grateful for your thoughts

As a nanny, I think you are being perfectly fair about the extra holiday. Although to avoid this problem in future, if they want 3 weeks holiday (which I would only give for her wedding or a very close family wedding abroad, or other big occasion on the other side of the world!) tell nanny that you can accommodate the holiday but she has to take a week unpaid.

Her attitude is completely unprofessional and I will pull her up on it, tell her that you understand that she is upset about it but she always knew that she would have to pay the 5 days back, be it by extra hours or cash. Tell her that if she makes the rest of her time uncomfortable then you are going to have to let her go early and that having brought this up with her, you will have to mention it in any reference you give for her. Tell her she is behaving very unprofessionally.

Regards the reference, you can only mention it in a written reference if you have spoken to her about it and her attitude dos not change.

Thanks so much for your helpful reply. One morning she turned up with such a bad attitude that I later texted her to ask if all was ok. She said all was fine and I said she could talk to me if she ever needed to. She got better for a few days, then has now slipped back. I'm a bit worried about what more confrontation will do to the relationship as she is not great in those situations and I don't want more aggro. It's a shame it's all ended like this.

I think she is wrong to let her personal disappointment be obvious to you, but I can understand her being disappointed. She asked for 15 days holiday and you didn't say no, or say that she would have to take 5 unpaid, either of which you reasonably could have done, you said she could work the extra hours. Now you are pregnant, you have gone back on that, so she finds herself not only needing to find a new job, but with you expecting to claw back a weeks wages which you had led her to believe was hers to keep. If you are only now telling her you are pregnant, surely there are several months left for her to make up that time as you said she could do?

...and most people feed their nannies, on duty at least, so that isn't exceptional.

35 hours extra can't just be squeezed in. i can't even think where we would do so. I was thinking during school hols but we are covering the next one and then she finishes. I also have no issue at all in feeding her but paying £20 plus letting her eat our food is I think exceptional.

How long has your nanny been with you?

Mama - I don't think you're being unreasonable, however, you can only legally make deductions from her salary if its mentioned in her contract or she agrees to it in writing.

www.gov.uk/understanding-your-pay/deductions-from-your-pay

If its not in her contract, you are not allowed to deduct it. Maybe if that's the case she could do the odd day for you when the baby comes.

Well, I think you wanted to be the nice guy, and you told her she could take the 3 weeks and work it out somehow.

Now, due to YOUR life changes this cannot be sorted, and you are making her pay for it.

I think it is fair enough to say she will have to take a week unpaid really, but you handled it badly (by being too vague ) so now she is pissed off.

Kinda high price to pay for clawing back 5 days salary.

You keep mentioning your generosity, but in this instance you were not generous.

I am a nanny and I think if I was your nanny I too would be a little upset that you wanted to deduct my wages by a week through no fault of my own.

Yes she took more holiday than in her contract but you agreed this and came up with a way she could make the hours up to you, now because you will no longer need her she isn't going to be able to make up the hours as agreed and you want to deduct the money instead.

If she was leaving due to her choice and so not able to make up the hours then yes I would expect you to take the extra pay back from her wages as she had taken more holiday than in her contract, but she isn't. It is your choice she needs to move on and so I feel you should just accept the fact that you let her have more paid holiday and now can't get those hours back from her.

Also re the food most families do give the nanny extra money for food each week but do it by having the nanny add things she would like to the family shopping rather than giving her cash.

I think that there are some (but not a lot of) grounds for your nanny to be miffed since it is your maternity leave which is preventing her from making the time back under a previous informal agreement. However, the extra 5 days leave approval was always discretionary on your part anyway.

Her showing 'tude is most unprofessional. I personally do not cave on principle when someone who works for me gives me the black face. It is insubordination. She is already looking for another job. Perhaps she can leave early instead. I'd ask her to go since her presence in your house is toxic and she knows that. You don't need her around to poison the air in your condition.

One solution is for her to leave before her holiday starts so it does not matter that it is 3 weeks or 3 months she wants to take off. You should only pay her for the 2 weeks leave.

I can understand why your nanny is upset - although of course it is unprofessional and unfair for her to effectively sulk.

You agreed to a three week holiday and making up the hours. The reason she can't now make up the hours is because YOU and making her redundant. No wonder she is pissed!

I think you need to suck this up and allow her the paid holiday. And I say this as someone who has a nanny who is often requesting extra days so I'm generally sympathetic to the issue.

I think you are being a bit unreasonable about the holiday. You made an agreement and now you're going back on it. That is unreasonable. I think you need to find a way for her to make up the hours or just gift her the week as a 'sorry we're making you redundant' gesture or a 'thanks for all you hard work, goodbye' present. If you gave her a cash bonus at Christmas and then lost your job in January, you wouldn't ask for it back would you? It's been given and agreed, you can't now take it back because your circumstances have changed. It's not fair.

She shouldn't be sulking, but it doesn't sound like she's doing much other than avoiding you. If she was arguing or overstepping boundaries or slagging you off to other people then that would be totally unacceptable. Being a bit sullen because you've behaved unreasonably toward her? Not ideal, but really not terrible either. I wouldn't mention it in a reference unless specifically asked.

I think what makes it tricky is that its you that gave her notice and not the other way around. So, now she finds herself looking for a new job and owing money. Hindsight is a wonderful thing-but when you offered her to make the hours up you should have stipulated what would happen if for some reason the job ends before the money is made up. Is there no way you would want some help during your maternity leave? Maybe those 5 days could be used after the employments ended.
But, your nanny was wrong to declare she was having 3wks off anyway and regardless of her views she shouldn't be displaying attitude. She should either speak to you about the issues or accept them.

Thanks for your views. Tbh I was a little surprised to hear most people think I was being unreasonable. So I'll have a think about the situation. We did have a heated argument about it which has really soured the atmosphere. Even if we do end up paying her, not sure I feel comfortable with her around anymore and she probably feels the same.

I kind of agree. Reasonable would have been to say at the time - you're welcome to take 3 weeks but of course 1 will be unpaid. Tricky to do now. But very unprofessional of her to come over all teenage about it.

Mamafoof, perhaps you should give nanny notice.

You can do this at any time up to 2 years easily, after 2 years you make nanny redundant.

Ah, so the conversation was actually a heated argument. Perhaps she is treading on eggshells to avoid another, rather than sulking.

No the conversation was a heated argument. The heated argument followed after 5 days of sulking and moodiness and her doing bare minimum for the whole week.

Sorry - meant to say initial conversation WASNT heated argument

I'm pretty surprised so many people think you're being unreasonable too, OP.

If I wanted more time off than my contract allows (in my office job) I would ASK my manager for unpaid leave. I'd never presume to book the holiday without it being agreed (it might well be refused), and I certainly wouldn't expect a week extra paid!!

We might at the same time arrange that I would work paid overtime, to make the time up. If so I'd expect to do full days, eg at weekends, rather than the odd hour here and there which I might have done anyway. And if it became unnecessary (eg project was cancelled) then I'd absolutely accept that, because I'd see the overtime as something I was doing for my manager's benefit, to make it OK for me to have that unpaid leave, not as something I was due.

It's a pity you left it vague, OP, although I do sympathise with the desire to avoid confrontation. But I don't think you're being unreasonable.

Thanks Strawberry- much appreciated. We have now agreed to try and let her make up the hours. Unfortunately the damage is done in my eyes and I am not sure i can look her in the same way but will need to try for the children.

I am a bit confused - has she already taken her 3 weeks holidays? How does her holiday year run (January till December?). How many months in her current holiday year is she going to be employed by you? Is she going to have any holidays of your choice before she finishes as well?
Also I presume she booked those holidays a while ago so dont understand why she couldn't have done quite a few extra days by now? Did you ask her and she refused? Or you kept putting it off?
I currently work for a mom who is on maternity leave and when the baby was born i did an extra day a week for them + anyone i worked for so far was very keen to have me help over the weekend ocassionally...
I can't comment on her attitude/behaviour as i can only read your side of story, wonder what your nanny would say... Like how is it possible to have heated argument? Do you mean she started to shout at you? If so you really should have fired her straight away...

You said that the damage has been done in your eyes, and that you're not sure that you can look her at her in the same way...she probably feels the same way about you! I agree with most of the posters here - it would have been fine to tell her that she couldn't have 3 weeks off at the time, but not to rescind an agreement that she could make the hours up. I'm glad that you decided to do the decent thing and stick to the agreement made, but I doubt that you can expect a smiling nanny for the rest of her time with you, as she's probably quite devastated that you tried to treat her like that, especially since she has been a good nanny.

I agree with the others who said that you are being a tad unreasonable

you said she could have the extra time off and paid and now you say she has to pay it back - plus will be losing her job - your circumstances have changed

In future state yes can have time off (it is works) but the extra time won't be paid

Food - nannies do eat at work ESP as don't actually have a lunch hour to go to shops etc

Not sure what she can't make up a few hours - so she works 7 hrs a day of owes you 35hrs and 5 days off?

Could she not do a few extra hours babysitting ?