CM holiday - is this ok?

[allhailqueenmab]

Our childminder likes to take 2 weeks off in the summer and visit family overseas. Our previous arrangement was that she would receive a cheap holiday rate for this period, by mutual agreement. we pay normal rates over Christmas though she doesn't work.

She has just emailed saying that she wants to change her contract to 4 weeks' paid holiday.

plus

she needs a certain 2 weeks plus 2 days in the summer.

I don't know how fair this is or how to manage it.

Either we have to take time off work at the same time (tricky for 4 weeks of the year that she seems to think she can inform us of)

OR

we have to find and pay for alternative childcare. So our costs go up not just by the cost of her holiday pay but by the alternative.

this is a bit of a bombshell to be honest.

I have booked time off for half term next week, although she is being paid her full not-term-time whack, because I want a few half terms days with my kids. I am paying as if she is having them for full days because it was not by mutual arrangement so I wouldn't dream of expecting her to take a pay cut because I have decided to keep my kids home without her finding it convenient to be on holiday too.

but it seems she thinks she can inform us when she is going to be on holiday and we will pay full whack!

plus the period of 2 weeks + 2 days is longer than the max we are allowed in one go at work (though I guess dp and I could take it concurrently, but why should we be made to?)

and now (I have just received this announcement by email) I am really worried about how we are going to manage this year - and really regretting having booked this time off when it is going to leave us stuck for childcare and / or out of pocket.

I would really welcome some views on this.

Also - last time she took holiday - I paid her a cash bonus to the value of her normal rate anyway - this was at easter - can I say she has already had one week of her paid holiday? no, I can't, because I said at the time it was a bonus - but if I knew she was going to spring this on us I wouldn't have felt free to give a bonus

what do you think?

She can propose a contract change; you don't have to accept it. Do you have any local alternatives?

She can do this. If you don't agree you can move somewhere else. Do your contracts have a set review date and has this been kept to?

As she is providing a service it's up to her to inform you when she is unavailable. Check on your contract how many weeks notice she needs to give.

I don't charge when I'm unavailable, but many childminders are choosing to spread their fees over the year this way.

I still think it's cheeky for cm to charge when they are away on holiday - I'm se and don't get paid

But saying that what a cm and parent agree is up to thm
AS long in the contract which has been read agreed and signed

The fact she now wants double pay isn't on

Personally I would look for another cm - one that either charges for one weeks paid holiday or none at all

Are you her only family? Can't see many families agreeing to pay her 4 weeks paid summer hols

I think there are two separate things: one, more money. That I think is a fair thing to start to negotiate
the other is being paid for holiday AND informing us when it is going to be at her convenience.
basically her holiday needs have for this calendar year now completely overridden ours and we can't find two weeks to take off and get away - assuming that we could book a place we want to go in that two weeks that we can't find

Can you arrange to meet with her and offer, say, a small increase in day rate but no change to holiday terms?

She shouldn't really have emailed and she needs to give you some notice of contract changes.

Our CM charges normal rate for her holiday - the only time she doesn't charge is when she's unavailable through sickness etc. as she recognises that we've potentially had to take the day as unpaid leave to cover. We also pay her normal rate if we choose to take DS ourselves for the day.

She takes 2 weeks per year plus Christmas, but gives us two months notice of when those 2 weeks will be so generally it's pretty easy to work something out between us, family, friends etc.

I don't mind too much to be honest - I get paid leave from my work, why shouldn't she? Yes, she's self-employed but to me that's just semantics - the service she gives me isn't that different to what I would get from a nanny (other than being in someone else's house) and a nanny would get paid holiday (plus be a LOT more expensive).

But then she's brilliant and I'm probably happier paying a bit more to get someone that is so good with DS - maybe if she's wasn't so good I might feel differently.

I would accept that you pay her when she's on hol, but not pay her any more annually, IYSWIM. So, you pay less per week, but pay for every week, including holidays.

BTW slev, the majority of self employed people don't get paid holidays or paid when they are off sick.

Just talk to her to see if there's any room for negotiation. Explain you might have to pay for childcare twice while she's on holiday. Ask how much notice you will have for her holidays.

However ... if these are her new terms, then you just have to decide whether to accept them, or leave unfortunately.

As I understand it you have two issues. The first is that she wants to be paid for her holidays and the second is that she wants to decide when she takes them rather than both of you agreeing a mutually convenient time.

I think only you can decide if it is worth paying her when she is on holiday. You would need to look at the total annual costs relative to other childminders in your area. It may be that others charge a higher hourly rate so you won't necessarily pay less elsewhere. Have a good look around and if you find a better deal you can always move your child.

With regards to the second issue, I think the vast majority of childminders choose to take their holiday when they want to. That is pretty standard practice for the self employed. She doesn't need to ask your permission or agree on a mutually convenient time. As long as she gives you the required notice in your contract she can take it whenever she wants. That's just how childminding works. If that's too difficult to juggle then you may be better off with a nursery or nanny.

If she is talking about changes which will come into force in the school summer holiday, that is almost certainly enough notice on her part. You can of course decline these new terms and give notice yourself. But it would probably be worth asking if there is any movement and trying to negotiate something that works for you both.

Oh, no, I agree most self-employed people don't get paid time off - sick or holiday. But I see childminding as slightly different - don't know why, just my slightly warped logic. I suppose because if you're the kind of self-employed that means you can make up time at weekends/evenings then you don't miss out overall and have that flexibility. Whereas CMs are self-employed but we tell them what hours we want them to work so it's a different kind of relationship and harder for CMs to balance.

Overall, I'd say OP needs to consider the total annual costs for the CM. If they're too high, see if there's something cheaper - either another CM or holiday clubs etc. for the holidays. Or suck it up if you think the CM is worth paying for.

And with the issue around lack of holiday - the OP could always look at the possibility of unpaid leave - I know dependants leave is meant to be for emergencies, but ultimately if you don't get anything lined up before the holiday starts, then you're in an emergency situation. Not ideal, but could be a last resort. And then for future leaves, do what DH and I do - we assume each of us will have to cover half the CMs holiday and then plan the rest of our holidays accordingly. Means we don't take all our holiday together but I actually quite like the days it's just me and DS so don't especially mind.

I'll keep quiet now

As a childminder I do think that's rather cheeky and it seems to me that she's taking advantage of your good nature!

I personally choose to have half pay for myself and half pay for children's holidays, up to a maximum of 5 weeks per year each. But this is my choice and seems fair to me and my parents.

I understand that your childminder does things differently and took two weeks paid leave previously but to suddenly change this to four weeks without any discussion with you seems rather unfair. I know you could choose to move to a different childminder but when your children are settled and you are happy with the childminder you're unlikely to do so.

She should have had a face to face contract review and taken your views on board rather than moving the goalposts.

Doing it by email is disgraceful. Have the maturity and courtesy to discuss it face to face and what she should have said is, this is what I want to do, how do you feel and then you ask for thinking time, and go away and choose another CM who doesn't take the piss.

I have asked to see her to discuss. There are too many things up in the air, too many things changing, to just look at the one issue - holiday pay - and say yes or no.

thanks, this thread has been very useful in clarifying my thoughts on this.