Is my childminder overcharging me?

[Changeymcchange]

Name changed for this, not sure whether my childminder is a mumsnetter.

I've used the came childminder for over 10 years, and a couple of things have bothered me recently, just thought I'd see what everyone else's opinions are and decide whether to tackle it.

Childminder is self employed, yet has 6 weeks a year of paid holiday. DH is self employed and doesn't get paid holiday. As far as I'm concerned this is in her contract so I've always paid it without question.

My childminder has my 2 children for 2 1/2 hours a day, 3 days a week (after school) she gives them an evening meal. So that's 15 hours a week. During school holidays she has them for 30 hours a week in total.

I don't actually know the hourly rate as my contract averages out the extra hours during the school holidays so I just pay the same rate every week.

All of her holidays are taken during the school holidays (2 weeks at Easter, 2 weeks in summer and 2 weeks over Xmas)

I pay just under £700 a month, does this seem reasonable?

But she is not doing 15 hours, she is doing 7.5 with two children.
We cant find the rate per hour per child, or indeed the rater per hour for two children if we mix it together.

But we need the OP to clarify how she is thinking it, as we dont know if she is adding together the holidays to 30 hours per child, or for both children.

No reason to shout at me, Outraged.

Childminders are paid per child, per hour. The OP is paying her to work 7.5 hours looking after child A and 7.5 hours looking after child B, a total of 15 hours.

If you divide the total by 2, you can very easily find the cost per child (unless she is randomly charging more for one child than the other, but there is no indication of that in the OP).

I wasn't shouting, I was exclaiming. Those are exclamation marks, not shout marks

But what about the 30 hours? Are these for both children put together in the same way, or should that be 60 hours?

I am just confused.

I should go and get myself a chocolate cream cooler in Starbucks.

Yes, that is exactly what I will do.
I will buy you lot a round!

Well th op says in total so I would assume it's 30 hours in total.

Well I'm assuming, the OP is using the same system as for term time, so 30 hours is total, 15 hours per child (i.e. double what it is in term time). Obviously we need the OP to confirm that though.

I pay 3.50 an hour (for one child) with snacks (and trips to cafe's, ouytings etc,) but no meals.

I pay a variable rate though, it's not 'averaged out' over the year.

And I don't pay for holidays or sick leave (CM has 6 weeks usually, but last year 7 weeks and maybe 7 this year) but if you agreed to the paid holidays (maybe you thought that was the norm at the time? Or you needed childcare fast and so you agreed to her terms?) you're stuck with them, unless you change CM.

If she's been looking after your kids for 10 years though, you must rate her as a CM, so maybe you don't mind paying a wee bit more for the quality of care she provides?

Apologies for not coming back to this sooner.

The total hours during the school holidays is 30, so 15 hours per child.

DS started school in September, so I'm hoping the bill comes down a fair bit by then as the averages are worked out from April to April.

Both me and the DC love the childminder, she's really good with them, there have been one or two issues over the years but that's to be expected over such a long term relationship, I just wanted to gauge the opinion of other mumsnetters before I decided whether I was paying over the odds. I don't want to risk upsetting an otherwise great relationship by complaining about the cost if the general opinion is that it's a fair price.

And I've always paid my childminders sick days as any good employer should, even though they're in the contract as being unpaid, firstly because there have been so few sick days (at a guess, less than 20 in the last 10 years) and secondly because I respect that sometimes people are unavoidably ill.

OK, in that case just over £4 per child per hour sounds fine.

However, the holidays sound unreasonable to me, but you agreed to them.

The rate sounds fine. If she didn't charge holidays, she might charge a higher rate, so the annual amount would probably be the same.

change I didn't realise I was such a bad employer for not paying sick leave

I'm surprised my CM hasn't released herself from the chains of my employment before now...

Thanks to everyone for their contributions, in all honesty We're horribly skint, we're cutting back as much as we can on all our bills but the cost of childcare is our biggest monthly bill by far and when we're struggling to heat our house and feed and clothe our family it's hard to look at the cost of childcare objectively.

I'm pretty sure the childminders rates are reasonable, all of my friends use free childcare through their families but that's not available to us, so I shouldn't judge our outgoings by other peoples.

My only gripe is that the 6 weeks a year paid holiday is always during school holidays and it would seem that the bill is worked out at 39 weeks a year at 15 hours, and 13 weeks a year at 30 hours, If I wanted to split hairs I should ask the childminder to work our bill out so that the holiday rate is an average of the 52 weeks and not an average of the 13 weeks at the much higher holiday rate. I don't think it's worth upsetting an otherwise great relationship over a few quid but DH thinks otherwise. I couldn't imagine sending the DC to any other childminder as she's so fantastic for putting up with DS

Elethomel, don't take it personally, the main reason for me paying sick leave is because I'm too lazy to work out the deductions

If things are really tight then you could ask for her to not implement her usual annual increase? Or could you ask for a term time only contract and use different childcare in the school holidays?

Those costs are horrendously high given you can't use her at all at Easter or Christmas and for 1/3 of the summer holidays.

I know costs vary hugely but round here three days a week of holiday club plus 3 days of after school club for 2 kids averages out at about £257 a month.

Can you use holiday clubs and after school clubs instead? Will your CM renegotiate the contract, based on your long standing relationship (I have done this in the past)? Either way, even if the holiday was unpaid, you are probably still paying a reasonable rate.

I guess that would be an option RandomMess but I don't actually know what the hourly rate is because of the averages. Since DS was born 5 years ago I've been relying on trust and our good relationship. I don't think she increases her rates a great deal year on year and she doesn't look after many children, in fact all of the children she looks after are at school.

I know I'm looking at it all wrong but my childminder only has 2 other children on the books, and those two children do one extra day to mine, so
By my rough calculations she earns more than twice the amount I pay, for working 2 1/2 hours a day, 4 days a week and still gets 3 days a week off with 6 weeks a year paid holiday. I fully expect to be flamed for saying this, hence the name change. I know, it's my problem, not hers

Unfortunately we don't have holiday and after school clubs in our area.

All personal offence has been scratched change :-) My CM used to be a bookkeeper so she does all the calculations for deductions (and gives us our bill each month with all the workings shown, including any extra hours she does for us - she is a gem :-)

I would also add, that as she works closely with other CM's in our little town, if she's ever sick (which is rare) she usually lines up another CM to look after DS1 and offers that to us as an alternative, so we just pay her the same and she pays her stand in.

Can you not ask your CM for her hourly rate? Does she not give you the workings for the averages each year (if that's how she works - e.g., this is the cost for each month the coming year and this is how I work it out). I would expect that, at the very least (if only for you to double check - our CM is great, but has made the odd mistake now and again (sometimes in her favour, sometimes in ours) and by getting her calculations each months, we can check and let her know of any errors and if any money needs to be reimbursed or given to her.

Your CM does appear to be onto a good thing...

Our CM hasn't increased her rates in 5 years (she appreciates the old credit crunch etc) could it be worth speaking to her, saying that your skint and that you're trying to minimise costs just now and ask whether she'd renegotiate your contract with at least an average that excludes the holiday weeks? It's a reasonable request, she might say no, but then at least you can consider if you want to do anything about it (e.g. start scoping out an alternative?)

First you don't employ her so aren't liable for her sick pay,
Secondly it's not in the contract that you pay for sick costs so you aren't contractually liable to pay it. So stop paying sick.
Also it is very unfair that she works out her holidays at 30 hours not the 15 basic. She has 6 weeks which is 2 more than most cm I know. And she charges them at the max - talk about cake and eating it.
I would say the 15 is her contract basic and that is what the annualised cost should be worked out. You might be better off dropping the holiday contract or going term time only and taking your annual leave over the holidays and then getting a nanny for the other weeks.

The six weeks paid holiday is the unusual bit. I thought the norm was 2 weeks paid holiday. The rest sounds normal though.