Childminders - help please, all opinions wanted CMs and parents.... PLEASE

[lunavix]

I've posted before about a few problems I'm having with some mindees but really need to know what everyone thinks.

I currently have 3 mindees between 7 and 10, all boys, and just my ds who is a toddler. I've noticed recently the behaviour of all three mindees has decreased - one, who hadn't really spent a lot of time out of school with boys his age, has started mimicking their behaviour, yet is much worse now! The other two are brothers and fight a lot, and as they are older they are pushing the boundaries a lot too - questioning me, sometimes saying they understand when I ask not to do something then doing it again.

An example - yesterday I had ds's new paddling pool out during the day, after school they came home and as it was sweltering I said they could get in it to paddle. It's only about 2m across and round so not really big enough for 3 big boisterous boys but I said it'd be fine to paddle in. They started chucking water at each other and sitting down - I know their only having fun but I'd asked them not to. I kept on saying not to, and eventually told them to get out as they werne't listening to me.

Today they had shorts/trunks so got in, they chucked water over each other. Also, ds's tiny toddler slide was over the side pointing into it and I reminded them they werne't allowed on it - I know I should have moved it - but of course they all sat on it, and now it's completely bent and no longer usable.

Plus when dh got home he saw that with their playfighting in the water, they've also managed to rip the pool. (sliding across it when it's not big enough) I did say they wern't allowed but again it falls on deaf ears.

How can I best manage this behaviour? There's other things too, but the problem is the older 2 have always pushed their luck but generally stopped when I asked. The younger one has seen this, and now seems to be the ringleader - but he will not stop.

I've been thinking about making up a rules list - I don't have one of these, and doing either a reward chart or rules chart but I don't know if they were too old? Plus is a rules chart (ie getting a mark if they break a rule) concentrating too much on the negative??

I'm really not sure what to do here.

The other problem is what do CMs do to seperate their childrens toys from minded kids ones, and what do you do about breakages? I have mindees toys in the diningroom in storage, ds's toys are in a few tubs kept seperate (bless him it's all he has) but I'm loathe to put them in his room as he's only 2 and doesn't play in his room - and if we put toys in there we realise he never ends up getting to play with them. Does anyone else find their mindees gravitating towards the few toys they 'aren't allowed'? I want to make ds's toys more accessible (plus having new baby so their toys will need to be out) without having to repeatedly say 'please put that away, you aren't allowed it'

And then there's breakages... I thought they were quite good kids, but dh says he doesn't think they treat things in the house with respect. Dh had a football when they started, and they kicked it over a fence and for soem reason (owner refusing or no answer for days) couldn't retrieve it. They've done this to another 2 balls, and punctured two as well. I've bought another for summer but as dh says he doesn't think this is normal for kids, even rough ones. Plus now ds's slide is broken, and they've ripped his paddling pool too.

I said to dh I thought it was perhaps my fault, as the toys in our garden aren't suited for older kids. It's a very small garden, and I kitted it out for my previous mindees (both 2) and ds, with lots of toddler toys. There isn't really room for anything for big kids (eg slides etc) and we couldn't get a bigger pool cos of the hosepipe ban. The parent of the brothers said this was no problem as they'd play out the front (safe and full of local kids) and the other said similar... but this paddling pool was the only thing that has got their son out the house this entire summer so far - he will NOT go outside to play.

I'm feeling really low now and like I'm not enjoying my job I don't want to refuse the kids toys but they keep breaking things, I don't know whether to just buy another paddling pool for ds (and either refuse to let them in it the whole summer or not have it out during the week) or to buy one for them only (this one isn't completely shot but isn't really safe for ds any more) and I'm worrying I just am not equipped for these older kids

Sorry I just feel so terrible, like I'm letting ds down too as he's seeing them misbehave, and seeing them break his toys And yet I feel I'm letting these older boys down by not having the room for them in the garden... and letting myself down as I have no idea how to manage this behaviour from them.

Oh Lunavix - I don't know wjhat to suggest

My DD was 5 when I started minding and at school FT - so "her" toys have always been in her room

I think you need to sit down with them and create some "house rules" with regard to the toys

I have never had children continually ignoring me (I'm too scarey) & I have always had DH at home - so no-one disobeys in this house

Over breakages - I have a certain amount each month for toys - if they break something it is replaced from that money - if they want a new toy it comes out of that money - therefore it is their choice?

How big/small is your garden?

I only have that little "shell" pool and all he older children respect that

I haven't been much help - have I?

Hi katy

I don't know if it's me overreacting. I'm 36 weeks pg, suddenly rather poor lol and starting to think about the upcoming months - I don't know if because of my hormones I'm seeing it all worse than it really is? Having said that, I'm sure their behaviour is worse, and the problem is I'm wondering how a newborn will fit in with them (eg if I say they need to be quiet in the hsoue and they ignore me?)

I'm just really worried I'm not providing for them. I don't do themes or learning plans with the older ones - the parents don't want me to, they really want it just to be time out after school - and while I seem to continually ask if they want to do something crafty play a board game etc none of them ever want to. One watches tv/plays ps2 - and this is pretty much it. His parent says he's the same at home, and she doesn't mind, and aside from cooking which we do every week he's very hard to pry outside. Another doesn't play outside at all, and won't play ps2 (but will watch) and all he'll do is lego or watch tv. This paddling pool is the first time he's ever really played outside.

The third likes playing football the best (but it's only when he's playing with the other mindees that they lose balls) but he likes doing a few other bits, but won't do them on his own.

I don't have a room of lego, knex, books, toys, yugioh cards like they have at home though, and when I do buy them things they either break (broke some radio controlled cars the day I got them) or they just won't do it (eg books, they will not read.)

The older two (used to) respect me enough to listen. However the younger one doesn't. Another problem with him - sort of unrelated - is while he's due to go home the same time as the other two, I have a slightly different agreement with their parents which means sometimes they're here longer, but it's okay. However, when his parents get here he will NOT leave. It has taken up to half an hour to get his shoes on stuff together and out (doesn't help that his parents hang around chatting but even when they need to shoot off he still does it.)

I now make him get shoes on etc before hand, but he's been known to run off into garden/hide/simply say 'no' to parents when they ask to get up and leave. They think it's adorable lol. I'm trying tp addres this with the parents this week but it just seems like there's a few behavioural issues.

Do you really need the money?

I did have one that wound me up.....so i sacked her

But I had plenty of other children - it's hard

Explain to the parents what is happening - they might take action

It maybe that 3 is a crowd and that 2 by themselves would work?

I'll think on it (I'm off to bed) and see if anyone else has any good ideas in the mean time

Don't stress yourself (how much time are you having off - and when??)

I just pick up child (even an 8yo) and put them outside the door (with their shoes) - whilst reminding the parenst that it is "my house my rules" esp when I have prev explained to them it's a problem

Not sure if this will be any help and just wanted to say well done to you for still working!!!
I normally look after 2x 2 year olds and my 7 mth old during term time but over the summer i also have my 6 year old at home and also a 6 and 9 year old mindee. I have lots of days out planned and intend on spending lots of time in parks with a big box full of bats and balls etc. I have a board on which i write what activity we will do and when. The older boys like to know whats happening and also it means i can organise where they can sit without upsetting the toddlers. I have set up a pasta jar for each of the boys and have reward stickers for them too, even the 9 year old seems to like these. I have gicven the 9 year old and the 6 year old certain resposibilities ie 9 year old has to help set table and also oversee tidying up of toys and the treat is pasta in the jar which then earns TV time. Do you have a toy library locally that you can borrow some older boys toys from? Maybe contact other childminders and swap toys or borrow toys?
With regards own childrens toys i tend to mix although my 7month old DD does have her own toybox and the mindees respect them as DDs toys. My 6 year old knows that if he wants to keep the toy for himself then it must go to his room.

these are my only three mindees, and by dropping even one it will make meeting the bills hard, we'll be pretty stumped for luxuries as is tbh. I've just finished with my two under5s as baby due next month.

I can't afford to have just the two, so I'd have to take on a third (wondering if a girl would be a calming influence - however in 18 months of minding I've had exactly two phone calls for girls, and minded both! That was IT.) I think they might be a bit better behaved, but the three boys adore each other and I have no idea how I'd tell one parent I suddenly couldn't have their child but I'm keeping the rest...

I'm only having two weeks off.... the theory being baby is due mid August, I'll have the last two weeks of the summer off after the birth, then they'll be back at school when I start minding again - so I'm only doing the three hours a day. It's starting to sound a little silly, and I'm worried I won't cope, but I've heard from a lot of CM who have done similar, plus like I said I'm thinking it's hormones. I really can't afford to run the risk of having longer off and losing mindees - we actually wouldn't meet the bills.

I did have a call today for a full time 2 year old from september. Dh and I were talking about filling that space, and technically this would be perfect. I'm worried a new sibling plus new full time mindee would be too much for ds though in one go, plus then I have no time with just ds and baby. (mon - fri I will have 9 - 3 just us!)

On the other hand, could drop an older one....

During my normal working week, I have 15 (ish) children, ranging from 16 months to 11 years.

I have garden toys which are designed for small children - some of the older ones will try their luck and use something, but I can get pretty shirty with them if I need to.

Toys do get broken occasionally, but I see this as part and parcel of the job. And I am always losing balls over garden fences (sometimes they reappear, sometimes they don't!) I would agree with your dh, children sometimes don't have respect for other peoples' belongings, but maybe they know they can get away with it with you?!

My older mindees are banned from playing "proper" football as they will trash the garden. I ensure that I have outdoor toys specifically for the older children - swingball, big swingset (with trapeze, rings, swing etc), skipping ropes, stilts, hoops, etc.

If you haven't got "indoor" things like Lego or whatever, I would visit a few car boot sales and get yourself some! Any construction sets go down well, or a box of small cars and a road mat, marble run and so on. Get the children to write a list of things they like. If you are going to continue minding older children, you will need to have stuff for them to play with (sorry, that sounds a bit rude, wasn't meant to be).

I don't think that there's anything wrong with games consoles in moderation, and I will also let them watch TV sometimes (but nothing that is so unsuitable for the toddlers to see).

I would make sure that your ds's own toys are away somewhere that the minded children cannot see them, even if it's under a table and covered with a blanket. I would also buy another small paddling pool for the little mindees, and just tip buckets of iced water over the big ones if they try to use it.

How approachable are the parents? If you told them that you were finding things a bit hard (say it's the heat and being pregnant), would they be able to have a quiet chat at home with their children, and ask them to be a bit nicer to you?

If you don't have older children of your own, I take my hat off to you for having these mindees - I cannot imagine being able to do it without the experience I have had with my own!!

TP - I think the fact I've never had older kids is part of the problem - ds is my first and he's only 2!. I've got experience with brownies - but my girls are very different to these boys!

I'm happy to see breakages as part and parcel of the job, but I did get shirty with them messing around in it as I pointed out it wasn't big enough - and my problem is them not listening!

I do have indoor stuff for them - 2 big lego sets, marbles, cards, boardgames, etc... just not a lot. I repeatedly get them to write me lists of things they'd like (I think this was your suggestion when I first took on older mindees ) and it's always footballs, playstation games, etc. I just meant I don't have the choice they do at home that must keep them entertained there - but like I said, the parents say one is always playing football, the other is on the tv/ps2 and that is IT! I do keep asking, and keep buying bits, but a lot of it they just will not touch. Also have cars and things - they say they're too old for it. Obviously they occassionally join in when ds is playing with something with me - small world, role play, etc, but 9 times out of 10 they won't.

What would you do about the paddling pool? It's still useable but I don't know how long for, but I don't actually have younger mindees - it was just left up from the weekend when we had it out for ds. Should I get the same size (about the biggest we could get away with) for the older mindees as it's getting them out the house - or not as they already broke one and technically it wasn't for them???

I just wanted to say I think you are amazing for still working with these children and being so pregnant and in this heat - I take my hat off to you!!!

I started minding just over a year ago when I had just my own ds aged 2.4 at the time. I went straight from me and him to ds and 4 mindees, 2 of which were older ones (boy aged 5½ and girl aged 8½). Started with summer holidays so all day and I found it very hard. I wasn't pregnant, it wasn't quite as hot as this but I still found it hard. The main problem was the older ones were like brother and sister (very close family friends) and would fight a lot. Girl suffered cut lip once and lots of screaming and shouting at each other. I was sooooooooo glad when I finished with these and decided not to go back to having older children until my ds was older.

As for your ds and his toys, it's a hard one as I have problems with mine (now 3). I had big problems with him getting used to sharing his toys so it all added to the stress. I'm not sure if you have this problem but what I have now is a box of toys in ds's bedroom but everything downstairs is for sharing iyswim. I say that he can only bring toys downstairs if he's willing to share (if he puts it down and leaves it). It's very hard though and I do feel for him as I also wouldn't have him playing upstairs in his bedroom on his own (especially with windows open!) so the poor lad has to wait til weekends (as all the time he's up during the week, I have mindees here).

I really don't know what to suggest, just wanted to commend you on dealing with all this for so long. I got stressed out and didn't have half the problems you have and I wasn't in your condition!

Please try and take it easy and not get too stressed

By the way, is problem with your house space? I know a lot of my stresses were relating to lack of space with small house and small garden.

Sorry, been no help at all!!!

i know just how you feel
my boys are older so their toys are in their room but i buy yoys for my job and the mindees break them it makes me cross
i have 1 young mindee who is 1yr old till 3.10pm then i have my after schoolers i have about 9 boys each night aged from 7-10
in the last week i have had two hula hoops broke, footballs popped, paddling pool ripped, frisby smashed, plants killed.
yesterday i was filling pool up with the hose and said not to touth hose while pool was filling up but 8yr old mindee picked hose up and fired it into boys bedroom window, i went upstairs and tv, computer, DS where soaked aswel as bed and carpet
what are we ment to do do we charge parents?

Message withdrawn

I am the opposite to you I have a DS who is 11 years and I CM little ones that he loves

All his stuff is put away in his room like lego etc cos it is not safe for babies

But my gut instinct to solve your problem is to get a bigger pool for them and they will be happier, also go to the park to let them let off steam

My DS pays with lego constantly, he writes stories on computer and then illustrates them

He goes on PS2 but not as often as his friends do --- he sort of plays on it for a couple of days and then doesn't touch it for weeks

You could get an eye-toy as DS friends all love that when they come round

DS is not keen on football

Good luck

What about a chess set

Ohh I realised I sounded like I want them to entertain themselves!!!

I do cooking, crafts etc with them as well. During school week we cook one day, go to park one day, do a craft one day and then have two days at home - I'll do things with them, but it's free choice for them.

In the holidays it tends to gear more towards a craft every day, cooking every day, a trip to a park one day, a big trip one day, people over one day, and two days of them entertaining themselves with my help!

So I AM doing stuff with them, my problem is more they won't play with toys, and while I don't have a lot of choice, they won't play with them anyways.

Just wanted to clear that up!!!

looneytune/lisa - I agree, maybe the age mix is a problem. I had twin mindees up until last week the same age as ds, and no probs. I've had these older ones since christmas and they've fitted in well. However now ds is on his lonesome, and suddenly most minded toys seem to relate to the younger age!

lisa - I do prefer littlies, however with ds and a baby due in 4 weeks, I am only registered for one littlie! Which won't even be as much earning as I get from the three school age ones... so financially is a problem.

kanga - I need to investigate hose pipe ban, someoone said pools are allowed, if so I may just buy them a pool!

So a couple of new queries:

First, I have actually had a call from parents regarding a new mindee (a littlie!) who is same age as ds, from September. While this solves a few problems (could let a mindee go if it all got too much, extra cash, friend for ds etc) dh reckons it will be a great distraction for ds, what with a new baby. I feel it could be too much for him - ie within the space of three weeks, a newborn and a 2 year old turning up! He's obviously used to sharing me with the other mindees, but I'm wondering if this is pushing it.
Other prob is it's full time - my old mindees were three days so we had two together. We won't have that now (although he starts preschool two mornings in Sept) plus I'm a little concerned about filling my days up so soon! Who else was a CM on here who minded two weeks after giving birth again??
As it stands the behaviour is worrying me for summer hols (very hot, cranky kids, no aircon, me rather pg!) but afterwards when it reverts back to only a few hours a day it's simpler.. but this will bump me up to a 50 hour week again I'd imagine...

Second thing is, I've decided we'll make up a rules list this afternoon (in prep for holidays!) and I'll explain they have the rest of the week to prove they can follow them else I'll be instigating reward-type measures so they earn treats (biscuits, toys, outings etc) How exactly would you work this?? I have three mindees, so would they need one each or a group one (if one's very naughty I can hardly leave him behind on a trip!) also would it be stickers, etc? And what do I reward? Anything I see following the rules exactly? Eg ask them not to throw water and they all stop = 3xreward?

Finally katy if you are around - what percentage of income do you spend on toys? I tend to buy stuff as I see it but this might be something to incorporate!

oh I should add I did think they'd entertain themselves more during the summer hols. I thought with a mix of craft, a couple of outings a week, playing in the garden/out front etc we'd be sorted with the nice weather. The sheer heat is forcing us indoors a lot as is (yet it's too hot to cook and stuff) and without a pool etc they don't want to go out (have a nice fan to plonk themselves infront in lounge!) which is why I was stressing over indoor activities - I'm finding it too hot to cook which I love doing with them, they're restless from the heat, they don't want to go out (except to destroy a paddling pool!)...

oke doke

Perhaps get your DH to fill the pool with a bucket before he goes to work in the morning and then it will be ready when they come home

Also if you get one with high sides it will be safer for your DS cos he won't be able to ACCIDENTLY FALL into it

BUT obviously not to leave them outside or DS outside without supervision

DS and his friends would also play with water pistols filled up from the pool

I know it is hard with a 2 year old and water flying around but perhaps if he is in his little pool they will leave his one alone

I think you are doing a very hard job being sooooo far preggers and these boys certainly need to behave better

have to say i think you're mad going bk to work 2 weeks after giving birth. my dd2 is now 10months and i know that life was very far from normal until she was at least 5/6 mths. the sleepless nights made me cranky and i was still having after pains for the first month. i just know i couldnt do it but then im very inexperienced with cm have only been doing it about 3 mths.

2 weeks is nothing though, that was when the visitors stopped coming, i was still bleeding (sorry tmi) and was grateful dd1 was at school most of the day so i could try and get some sleep in the day (not much but a little bit). the house was a tip not in a fit state for mindee's parents to see.

now im thinking about it im really feeling sorry for you, if you manage it you should get a medal. im sure you could muddle through but if i was you id try to take more time off because it takes long enough to recover as it is but 2 weeks is nothing.

or am i just a big fat wuss? im assuming the government fork out mat pay because women need it because giving birth is so traumatic and such an upheaval.........sorry i bet im not helping but i just cant see how you're going to manage.
then again i didnt think id manage working 7 days a week but im doing it just about! (having a worse day today because dd2 was awake for about an hour n half last night, 1st time in ages!)

lunavix - not had time to read all but i saw the bit about hosepipe ban and not being sure if could use for paddling pools. my local water authority is thames water and i went on their website and it's fine to fill pools up. something makes me think you may be same area but if not, why not check out the website of whoever you use and see what it says. thames water had a checklist with ticks and crosses so very clear

I think you're extremely brave... I nannied three un-ruly children (whom I ruled with an iron rod ) when I wsas preg with DD and stopped at 32 weeks.
This time I was minding a boy of 3.5 and stopped at week 30... I am now nearly on week 32 and finding it hard to control DD, let alone someone else's children.
I would, personally sit them down and explain that toys are being broken because they are being down right dis respectful. Not only to your belongings but you and your family. I would also threaten to send a letter home to mum saying how unhappy you are because they disobey you so often. I would take the gentle voice approach and show them you are genuienly upset by it all. That you try and make nice things for them to do but they ruin them.
If it continues then i'd play the one strike and your out rule, so if you tell them and they carry on have a little 'cooling off' area. Divide and conquer!!! It works for boys...
If you really are so unhappy... and I would be. My mindee used to bring a toy every morning and wouldn't even let DD touch it, none of her toys were out of bounds to him and I in the end explained that she shares everything with him and we are fair, if he wasn't willing to share his toys, then he should not bring them. I even sent a letter home and mum and dad agreed. Let mum know how naughty they have beome and that they don't listen to you. Maybe a strong talking to from their parents might do it.

It sounds as though you are doing lots with these children already (sorry - didn't mean to suggest that you weren't before ) - but, at the age these boys are, they should certainly be able to entertain themselves as well.

I agree with pol26's post, particularly her advice about sitting down and having a chat. They are taking you for a ride!!

If you do any kind of reward chart, you can't use outings as a reward. As you already realise, you can't leave the "naughty child" behind (but could be tempting!!)

I would also get a bigger pool so that all the children can enjoy it.

I have no experience of minding whilst pregnant or having small children of my own around (mine were all much older when I started), but I can well remember how hard it is having a toddler and a newborn. It was harder than hard. If you have any choice whatsoever, I would take as long as possible off, and if you need to give notice to children who are raising your blood pressure, then do it.

Hi everyone

Well sat down and told them I wasn't happy, I got them to write out a rules list, which we then made into a poster together and have on the wall. One parent got very cross with them and told them off, and basically fully supported me. The other basically couldn't believe their precious angel can do anything wrong. grr.

Behaviour still not fab but definately improved. Have decided to bribe (no sorry REWARD ) with new toys so thats helping lol.

had a visit from the new mum, who seems really happy with me and really wants me to have her child. It's a 2 year old 30 hours a week, plus 6 and 9 year old in the holidays... so I guess I'll be keeping busy!

Thanks everyone, I'm feeling less stressed now I've had your support although give it a week or two and I might be back lol....

Sounds like you are doing so much more with the children than I did when I was 30+ weeks pregnant. I was lucky because I was only a couple of months pregnant during the summer holidays last year. I finished up at 37 wks and for the whole time I was pregnant the parents were great and were happy for me to do a lot less outings and a lot less tidying up etc (their ideas not mine) and used to tell me off for doing what they thought was too much (My mindees parents are great).
I took 10 wks off so baby was 7 wks old when I started back and even though he is an angel and was sleeping through the night etc I found doing 50 hours a week with such a young baby hard work. If I could turn back the clock I would definately have taken longer to enjoy him being so young and to spend time with my other 2 children. I also felt constantly stressed and wound up (for no reason other than being pregnant) during the last few weeks so had to try rweally hard not to be grumpy and I didnt have this heat to contend with.
I would buy another pool but not let my mindees in it until they started to respect stuff but then Im mean I dont have much stuff in my garden for older mindees only my own childrens trampoline everything else is for younger age group I just let them play in field next to house with balls bikes etc. If my children dont want mindees to touch their toys theb they know thay should keep them in their rooms and nidees also know which stuff they arent really meant to touch eg PSPs and Gameboys etc and my own childrens bikes are also out of bounds. Also DH pops in and out depending where he is working and mindees all know not to annoy him.
Good luck if your only taking 2 wks off I couldnt have done it and I hope everything goes well it sounds like you are doing a great job.
Im off on holday in 8 hours so Ive got 3 wks with no mindees and time to find my sanity again.
kizzypie

I live in a city which has 3 public paddling pools that I know of. These are free, and one even has life guards. These give hours of entertainment in this hot weather and are open until 8pm. If you don't know of any, try phoning your local council (open spaces dept) for details. They've been a real boon in this heat. There is space for little ones to dip their toes in the shallow edges or marvel at the fountains. There is space for the bigger ones (up to 12 or 14 at our pools) to run amok in the ways that they do. All are situated in large parks near playgrounds so there are options for climbing or football etc to please everyone. We go at least 3 times a week and whether its a half hour quickie or a whole afternoon you end up with fit, happy and quiet children worn out from their efforts. (DONT forget the gallon of drinks!)