Self-employment for nanny in 5-family nanny share?

[welovetheolympics]

We have just joined a large nanny share - there are currently 5 families involved, with most parents using her part-time. She is based in one home all the time and each family pays a day rate irrespective of the numbers of children on that particular day.

We are not certain about the self-employment status of the nanny. Can our nanny remain self-employed? On the one hand it seems HMRC might deem her employed, like most nannies are, as she gets paid holiday etc. But on the other she negotiates her own rates, buys her own equipment (eg pram, cot), and works for up to 5 families that change regularly, on different contracts, different days and even different rates (based on when they joined etc). HMRC advisors have so far given conflicting advice. So, any tips or experiences would be welcome.

One of the first things to look into is how many children she looks after from more than 1 family at a time. She can only care for children from 2 families at the same time. 3 families (or more) and she needs to register as a childminder - it doesn't matter that she is not looking after the children in her own home.

A bit more information here.

That sounds like the set-up somebody was trying to convince me to do, nanny for her kids in her home plus their numerous friends.

It's really dodgy and I'd avoid it at all costs if I were you!

Wait, she's based in 1 home all the time but doesn't work FT for that family? It's illegal regardless of employment status.

The exemptions to registration are based upon nannies being based in the home of the children they are caring for (family A), with children from another family permitted at the same time (family B). They can't have 3 families even if it's their own child because that would be families A, B and C and they can't be based in family A's house but caring for children from family B & C.

She's acting as an unregistered childminder, on unregistered premises which are not her own. It's not HMRC you need to be worried about.

I do not feel you will get an answer to this, as you have already found that even HMRC give different answers. I would say that if you have not already spoken to the Status team, that they are who you should speak with, not the new employer helpline. You can ask the status team for a decision to be made in Your Particular Case - so your involvement with this nanny.

There are various legal problems as nbee has said if the nanny cares for 3 or more families at once. There are probably also insurance problems, as insurance often has conditions which relate to the legal side of things, in this case The Childcare (Exemptions from Registration) Order 2008, 3(1)(a)(ii)

Agree with NomDeClavier. Unless she is always caring for the children who live in the house at which she works, then there are going to be issues with legislation (which I linked to previously). The childcare regulator (what country are you in?) would be getting involved and I suspect would require Childminder registration. Once she is a childminder, then she can be self employed.

Hi

Thanks for responses so far. Sorry, no to clarify she works for family A full time (though often only 4 days a week - and doesn't work the Friday), but families B&C&D, part time - each child goes 2 or 3 days. Family E is for an after school pick up 4 days a week.

She likes the numbers because she gets paid per child - ie the costs are not split so she gets more if she has 3 at any one time than 2. I guess this is unusual though? [We are new to all of this, as you might guess!]

BUT, yes seems that the Ofsted registration is the problem here. I've looked at Ofsted and its clear that she needs to register as a childminder if caring for children from more than 2 families.

Thanks for your advice!

A childminder can operate from a home which they do not own, or occupy. As long as it is a residential property and occupied by someone, then the childminder can work from that location.

So I think this person really needs to register as a childminder, then operate as a business using that home, paying the owner of that home rent. They would need suitable insurance cover and the home owner will also need suitable cover - I doubt a standard home policy would cover it as it isn't the home owner who is the childminder (plus childminders usually need to inform their home insurance provider that they are minding from the premises).

families B&C&D, part time - each child goes 2 or 3 days. Family E is for an after school pick up 4 days a week.

To advise we would need a full schedule for say a one month period unless it is a fixed weekly pattern. It is highly likely that they will be caring for children from 3 families at the same time - does that ever occur?

After school pickup counts, if they are going from school back to the house. There may be an argument that it fits with the exemption if the child is cared for less than 2 hours in a day.

I think this just all sounds horrifically complicated... Unless B, C & D are school hours only, or she doesn't work Fridays when she isn't caring for family A's children it's probably going to involve going down the registration route.

But even so that might lose problems around ratios. Nannies aren't restricted as such but CMs have to operate to much tighter standards.

Another test of self employment (ignoring the ratios and number of families about which I know nothing) is who finds a replacement when she is ill? If it is up to her, it is more likely she is self employed. If it is up to you, she is an employee. They also look at who does her timetable, but it sounds like she is ok on this front as she negotiates times etc with each family separately?