Help with nanny dismissal please...

[Sinsemilly]

So I think we've come to an end of the relationship with our current nanny. I'm disappointed about it because I'd ideally have liked her to stay on for longer. I'm currently on mat leave #2 but planning to go back to work in 2 months, so will need to find someone by then. But I'd like some advice from you experts about how to approach it.

These are our concerns:

• She seems to really struggle with looking after two children, and isn't bonding with the baby at all. She much prefers to spend time with the toddler, and the few times I've left her with both babies she's seemed confused about how to juggle feeding / bath times, and appears to find the baby an inconvenience. I know she has experience in looking after two children, so it very strange that she's finding it so hard.

• Being on mat leave, I've realised that she has certain habits that I'm unhappy about, mostly to do with hygiene. When I've raised them she has become defensive and has refused to change them. She is generally very set in her ways and has never followed our instructions, e.g. preferred routines, naptimes, activities etc. When asked to do something in a different way she grumbles, might do it for a day or so, then 'forgets' until we get tired of asking.

• She is generally very unaware of her surroundings, e.g. she often doesn't know where she is, names of people she and DS1 spend time with etc. That sounds a bit woolly, but it makes me feel uneasy that if there was an emergency she wouldn't be able to get help. (I know this is an extreme example, but it's a niggle I have!)

• DS1 has health problems that have meant he's been taking medication for the last couple of months. Because he takes it throughout the day, the nanny has had to be involved. Not a week has gone by when she hasn't either forgotten to give him the medication, or given him the wrong dose. We couldn't have been any clearer with the instructions (and it's clearly written on the packets / bottles). Frankly this terrifies me and has made me lose trust in her abilities completely.

I can't leave both my babies with her for much longer, can I? If I'm honest I think some of our problems are to do with the fact that I've been at home and our relationship hasn't stood up to spending so much time together, but still. DS1 (23 months) gets on brilliantly with her but I'm telling myself that he'll adjust quickly to someone new.

I think my questions are:-

1. Am I being petty, or would you say these sound like genuine problems?
2. We haven't given any formal written / verbal warnings (although we've had conversations about the various problems). Could this present a legal problem?
3. According to her contract she's on 4 weeks notice. Would you recommend she work her notice, or we ask her to leave immediately?
4. How honest do I need to be about all the above? I'd like to avoid any unnecessary unpleasantness, as I do think she tries hard, but is just not up to the job.

Any advice would be hugely appreciated! (And sorry this is so long!)

You're not being petty - these are genuine problems and I have experienced some of them myself (though not rolled into one nanny).

What would bother me most is the 'set in her ways' aspect - a nanny really needs to have a flexible outlook and adapt to the way her family like to do things (though proffering her own advice as needed!).

I cannot help with the warnings/dismissal - doesn't it depend on how long she's been with you?

Problems all seem genuine and serious to me. You need to be relatively honest about why to avoid confusion and unpleasantness imo-honesty is a form of respect, iyswim. And otherwise she might think you just don't like her (worse). Let her know you appreciate the effort she has made.

If you can afford to pay her notice but not have her work it, then I would. a) this is a form of redundancy pay and might smooth things over to some degree - offer it framed as a goodwill gesture b) making her redundant for incompetence, while absolutely your right, is essentially a fairly unpleasant thing for her and will make it difficult for her to be in your home with your DCs. Also if you want someone to bond with baby before you go back to work, you need to get them in quick sharp.

She obviously has to go, quick and clean is the way to do it.

1. Giving the wrong dose of medication is a show-stopper and probably grounds for summary dismissal without notice or pay in lieu.

1. If she has worked for you for less than a year she cannot claim unfair dismissal because you have not given warnings.

1. I am surprised you are even considering her working her notice.

1. You need to tell her that she has fallen short of the most basic competancies expected of her, and give examples. I would suggest that she thinks hard about whether she is suited to childcare. Ask her if she has anything to say about this. This is not "unnecessary unpleasantness", it is appropriate frankness.

"this is a form of redundancy pay"

No it isn't, and suggesting it is would be a big mistake. The position of nanny is not redundant and even if it was this is not why you are dismissing her.

sorry, I mis-spoke, didn't mean it in a legal sense, should have said "goodwill pay" / "goodwill gesture"

b) making her redundant for incompetence,

There is no such thing as "making her redundant for incompetence", I think you mean "dismissing her" or "terminating her employment". Redundancy is something very specific and only applies to a position (not a person) which is no longer required.

yes absolutely, didn't mean redundant at all and have said I mis-spoke, am only trying to address the interpersonal side of the dismissal

The fact your nanny forgets to give ds1 his medicine would be a no brainer for me and she would be dismissed

The lack of hygiene (is this the nanny who went for a wee with door open and didnt flush/ wash her hands?)

Lack of surroundings ??

Forgetting Who she has seen or been would worry me

Not coping / playing / looking after baby - let alone both would worry me

All of the above are serious problems but as I said the major one would be the first sentence - forgetting to give medicine

So instant dismissal for neglect about giving medication

And sure you will be able to find a other nanny before you go back to work

I think forgetting medicine is dreadful.
My charge has lots of prescribed meds throughout the day. I have never forgotten. If I did I would put his life in danger.
Ditto to hygiene. It's not hard. Basic handwashing after the loo, being outside, before food prep, and before eating should be what everyone does.
Not following routines you have set is also a no no.

How long has she worked for you? I think this effects the dismissal procedure.

I would dismiss her though.

I don't think you are being petty at all. You need to ensure the safety and wellbeing of your children which you cannot do by leaving with this nanny.

All the best with the dismissal process. It's likely to be a bit fraught but ou are absolutely doing the right thing.

Leaving them

For me any single one of these reasons and she would have to go she isnt doing the job shes being paid for. Sounds like you've been more than fair giving her the time you have.
You are doing the right thing by getting rid of her

Doesn't sound like you can trust her

As others have said, any of those reasons is a deal-breaker for a nanny- you employ to look after your children in loco parentis, the way you would have looked after them, not in a substandard way. I would simply tell her that she is not coping with the role, list the reasons you've given here, and advise her to find work in a nursery. And put your phone number on the reference you give, which must be in blandest possible terms. If she applies for another nannying role her next family must know that she may not be up to the job.

We had a nanny like this who really struggled with the children and spent all day every day in her home town with her friends and their charges. She took an instant dislike to my then 6 yo DS. Eventually she resigned at a time designed to inconvenience us the most, just before I had to go abroad for 6 weeks. The reference I gave her mentioned that I thought she would be ideally suited to a job in nursery with colleagues and some supervision.

Doesn't sound like you can trust her

I would sack her for the medicine thing alone. Its bad enough to forget it once, but to do it weekly is shocking. It shows a lack of care and respect for you, your child and the job.
If she hasn't bonded with the baby and is struggling now then there is no way she will cope any better when she has both sole charge. It will be worse. Your older child will cope fine with a change over and if you do it before you return to work it will be a much smoother transition

Thanks everyone for your input and support, it looks like the consensus is very clear. We'll be having the conversation with her tomorrow, and will allow her to leave immediately. She will get a full month's salary plus a couple of days' holiday pay so I think she should feel fairly compensated.

And I hope she does find another family that she's a better fit with, but she unfortunately doesn't suit our particular circumstances at the moment; I'll have a careful think about how to word any references so that we don't mislead anyone.

Thanks again - so grateful for the collective wisdom!

'Would be more suited to a role in a nursery' is code for the kind of low level incompetence you describe, where someone basically needs supervising all day. For me the medicine thing would have led to dismissal, though, and I have a long fuse.

As others have already said there are serious issues with the nannys work competence that will only become more of an issue if employment were to continue. You do not need those concerns and worries when you leave her in sole charge. We went through a similar process last year and due to circumstances had to conduct disciplinary proceedings leading to written and final written warnings. Sadly despite all of the discussions and opportunity to improve her standards she didn't take them. She chose to resign as I was writing out her dismissal notice. It was such a relief for our whole family when she left. Similarities in our case were very poor hygeine (= vomiting children), poor standards of care, poor relationship with eldest (something went on by account of bruises but child clammed up on discussion and nanny had no explanation), inability to cook without burning food setting off smoke detectors, leaving pan on stove whilst going out (last straw), not locking up house when going out. Fortunately, our current nanny is fab and such a breath of fresh air!

In our case we chose not to provide a reference as we had nothing good to say. We felt that providing a basic bland reference was inappropriate as this could be easily glossed over for her next employment. Whatever you write (either good or bad) has to be an honest account as both the nanny and the new employer could hold you accountable for the content of a written reference. If a future employer wanted to telephone me about her conduct I would discuss it but I am not happy to put it in writing. Don't feel pressured into writing a reference. Good luck, it seems such a difficult thing to do but you will feel better once it is done.

How long has she been working for you - if less than year very straightforward
if more than a year then there are procedures you need to follow or you will leave youself open to possible legal action - here is good starting point

www.gov.uk/dismiss-staff/overview

How did it go OP?

Thanks for asking MaternityNanny. It actually went better than we had expected. We explained that we had to let her go and outlined her thinking, and she admitted she had been finding the role a struggle, and was slightly relieved. So it was mutual, really.

I'm pleased that it was amicable and we've left things on good terms. Also, my toddler hasn't asked after her once, which I was slightly surprised at.

I have around 6 weeks before I really need a replacement to start, so will be starting the recruitment process in the next few days. I remember last time we had some good quality applications from nannyjob.co.uk. Is there anywhere else we should look? Or is an agency our best bet?

Sorry, that should read our thinking