Private school nursery - would this worry you?

[Fuchzia]

Okay so went to a settling in day at in a nursery class attached to a lovely school. I'm not sure if I'm worrying over nothing so would like opinions please!

I was in the classroom with one other mum and our children, the teacher and about 8 pupils all the children were between 2 1/2 to 3 1/2. One little boy wanted the loo. The teacher sent him out on his own. She was the only teacher there for about half an hour so she had no choice really. Now loo is outside in enclosed school grounds, down two short flights of steps and across a play area. Little boy went off for about five minutes and returned.

I'm not sure if DS could be trusted to do this tbh. my mind keeps going over all the wondering off / trouble making possibilities although I think it would be difficult for him to get far and there seems to be lots of older children / teachers about. Would this bother you?

Do you mean an Independent school (such as a prep school where you pay several thouand)?

In an Ofsted regulated nursery there has to be a minimum of 2 staff on duty (for the entire nursery) but Independent schools are different, not regulated by Ofsted.

Would it be a worry - initially yes but it pushes children to be independent which some parents will want. Do you want that for your child?

Presumably the teacher knew he could cope on his own, though, if he's a regular attendee. DD is 3 1/2 and goes by herself at nursery school.

I wouldn't like this. It wouldn't 'worry me' as such, but I don't like the idea of having to go outside, across the play area to go to the loo. What if it's raining/snowing/icy/really cold? I don't want to work somewhere like that and I don't want my children to go to school somewhere with that set up.

I would also be concerned about what happens if they get in trouble while in the loo i.e. what if they wet themselves/ wee on their clothes/, need help wiping etc. Is there someone nearby who could hear them calling? Or would they have to come back across the playground, pants round their ankles to get help?

Did you ask the teacher what would happen if your DS needed the loo as he isn't ready to go all by himself yet? Maybe they only send the ones they know are capable by themselves?

I guess it would depend on how large and safely enclosed the grounds were, who else might have access to those toilets and whether he would remain in earshot of a responsible adult during the trip.

If the toilets are out of sight and sound of an adult I wouldn't be happy because a child that age could easily get themselves into quite a pickle in the toilets and need help to get sorted out.

The teacher did have a choice but it wasn't ideal as it would interrupt their learning. I would expect a practitioner in a nursery who was in this position to take all of the children with her unless a risk assessment had been completed which showed that it was safe for children to go alone. Another possible option would be to send the children in pairs.

That wouldn't be allowed to happen in a state school, so i certainly wouldn't put up with it somewhere i was paying megabucks for. Or even just a few bucks! I am all for fostering independence and so on, but my ds certainly couldn't have done that at 2.5.

Thanks for your replies! Yes it's a pre-prep private school, so not that cheap. I did ask the teacher if they all went on their own and she replied that they got taken until they were confident they could go themselves. Thing is as she was the only adult in the room all that time if a child had needed her help she would have had to have left the other children. In fact she offered to take my son when he needed to go. I know me and the other mum where there but it's not quite the same is it?

Seems like a nice school otherwise, staff v engaged with pupils etc. but I keep worrying he might wonder off and that they wouldn't notice he hadn't come back. I can't tell if it's just my usual OCD paranoia or if I should be concerned.

I don't think that is ok at all! The 2 year olds should have been in a 1:4 ratio, so there was not enough staff in the room if some of the children were under 3. And you and the other mum absolutely could not have been left alone with the children.

That's even without the worry of a child falling down the stairs etc.

Sounds like they are massively (and illegally) cutting corners on staffing.

nannynick - are you sure that nurseries aren't regulated by Ofsted if attached to an independent school?

So she offered to take your child to the loo, leaving you and another mother in charge of the other children?

Run like the wind.

The physical space set-up sounds pretty odd to me, for a nursery school. Especially when they are charging £££ for it.

My DC went to standard day-nursery (not attached to a school) - all the rooms has toilets in some version of an en-suite arrangement - it was an older building and must have been converted to be like that specially. For children that were able, they would go alone - but would always be within earshot of the staff. The toilet doors were also not full height, so the children had privacy but staff had rapid sight access if required.

At school, there are toilets immediately adjacent to the early years classes. For the same reasons.

I don't like what you describe...

Massive red flags for me:

Teacher willing to leave new 2 mums with class - are you even CRB'd by the school?!

Woefully inadequate (possibly illegal but not sure how independent schools are governed) teacher to child ratio especially with under 3's included

Inappropriate toilet facilities - I'm all for encouraging independence but walking to another building alone, no supervision toileting etc is ridiculous. I have a 3.5 year old & am a cm and there aren't many children this age or less who can cope with much beyond a wee on their own!!

I'd be having words with the teacher & head about your concerns

I'm not sure what would have happened if DS hadn't insisted mummy take him. I had my 8 month old with me which I think is why she offered, possibly she would have called another member of staff in. Not sure about ratios I think they take them the term they turn three (my DS will be three a month after he joins) so maybe all the children had already turned three.

I think I will have to speak to the head, we've paid a registration fee but I'd be happy to write that off rather than leave this unresolved. In many ways this school would work really well for us, option to leave him there full time when I go back etc. I guess a lot will depend on how they respond to my concerns.

Sounds poor to me, there should be enough staff to cover loo trips!

Ofsted regulates private schools for the eyfs stage I think, if the school wants to offer the money off for 15 hours.

No, not good enough. Even if you weren't shelling out ££££s for this, the set up is not right, for all the reasons above

A good friend who used to work in prisons once told me to always look at the toilet facilities in any new place, as they are a really good indicator of what the people running the place really think of the people they serve. Sounds like this nursery squarely fails the "toilet test"

I wonder if she had somebody in the next room doing planning or paperwork or something who would have been available to assist with toilet trips/cover the class while she did toilet trips.

SamSmalaidh - No I am not sure, I think it may depend on various factors. ISI regulate the school and as of 26 October 2012 they could opt out of EYFS though the opt out does not apply to children under the age of Rising Three - but what age do they mean by that? I think a 2 year old is classed as rising three if they become three years old in the First School Term. So it's hard to know who regulates a Rising Threes Nursery Class within an Independent Prep School, though I would suspect it is more likely to fall under ISI rather than Ofsted.

Fuchzia - Has the school told you who regulates them and specifically the 2-3 year old children's class?

A teacher being willing to leave two mums with a class of children seems bad to me. Teacher is still on site but is not within sight or hearing, plus it's a child protection issue.

No I don't know who regulates them NannyNick will ask tho. My MIL who who is a pre-school teacher herself thinks a 1:8 ratio Is fine if they had all turned three but that there should be two adults present at all times.

The set up is odd because the school is an old Victorian house and the nursery class is a hut within the grounds. This also means there is no 'next door' for another teacher to be. It may be that this was an usual situation on a quiet Friday afternoon hence her not really thinking when offering to take my son to the loo. I'm going back tomorrow and will speak to the teachers.

It doesn't matter if this a fee paying nursery of a prep school, or a LEA nursery class, there should be two adults present at all times, and toilets near by. They need to think about changing their hut for a decent modular building complete with toilets. I'm presuming there must be plumbing...they do have a sink, don't they?

Ah ok then.

DD's preschool was a hut, in fact the one next door was a scout hut. It was fab, but they had toilets inside in one corner.

Some of the best pre-school care is probably to be found in huts up and down the country. But they should have toilets in them.

If I was paying top dollar for nursery I would want purpose built or at least properly adapted buildings, a qualified teacher and more than minimal staff. Actually I would want that in any nursery, I get that with DS's state nursery.

Oooh, where's the like button?

Yes I'm very much coming round to this way of thinking Sam! Basically I'm paying more money for less than the minimum you get elsewhere