How many children uder five can a childminder have?

[2boysnamedR]

So I think Ofsted have changed something in September this year. My childminder says she can now have two babies under one, and another two kids under five all in the same session. Is this right? I kind of read it that you can still only have three under five and two or more can be uder one if they are siblings? Plus taking a school age under five year d to school (so for a hour a day five kids under five). Anyone help please? Ta

3 children under 5, usually 1 under 1.
in exceptional cirumstances i.e. to meet the needs of exisiting parents (NOT new business) so for continuity of care or siblings up to 5 under 5.
The key word is EXCEPTIONAL. In each instance the c/m must have risk assessed how they will be able to meet the needs of all the children in their care, and informed all parents of their decision to vary their ratios.
At all times a c/m must care for no more then 6 children under 8, ie if they increase the number of EY children ( 4 under 5) then they may only have 2 in the 5-8 age bracket.

For the purposes of ratios a 4 y/o in full time education (5 full days) is considered a rising 5 and counts in the older age bracket.

HTH

My baby is 6 months. She is taking on new business for a ten month old. Would she know it is under exception circumstances? I wonder if she is taking me for a mug or making a geniune mistake? I have signed up and paid a deposit presuming it would be only my baby and two toddlers. Thanks

You can get special dispensation. Call ofsted with her registration number and check.

Previously the two babies under 1 variation was easy to apply for and permanent, so this wouldn't really concern me if I had faith in my c/m.
However, if she has 2 under 1 and 2 more under 5, I'd definitely be asking her how she plans to meet the individual needs of all children. What periods of time will they be in her care? e.g. is there just an hour overlap, or are they all full time? How does she plan to manage transport, nap times, outings etc
The revised EYFS training has been poor ( in my area) so it is possibly a genuine mistake. Talk to her and see where you want to go from there.

To 2boysnamedR
I'd definitely be worried about signing with this childminder!
I am a childminder and unless your child and the 10 month will not be in her care at the same time at all, she cannot take on another under 1.
Even if she didnt have any other children to care for, it's still not allowed.
Please do as previous person said and check with Ofsted.

Thanks, they will all overlap. So all four all day on the same day. I think I'm going to call Ofsted, not giving her details, but just to check for my peace of mind.

So to the childminders out there - would you be happy to have four kids under four years old? When three really need to be in a pram.

Im a CM and am registered for 6 children under 12, only allowed 1 under 1, and 3 under 5 including the baby (I dont have one though) and the CM's children count. You can get a variation but I wouldn't unless maybe twins or something. But that is per day, so you can have lots of children under 5 as long as they dont come on the same day. If you want advice you can call the SCMA helpline in Scotland, I think England have the same NCMA. I think 3 under 5 would be plenty TBH and I don't know how confident I would feel about a CM having more. I have 2x2 year olds and they are not here when the afterschoolers come. I would not be comfortable having 3 under 5 + 3 out of school kids as how would you manage to watch them all? Also, the school run to consider. I may not be making as much money as some CM's but i think I give a better quality of service, and even self employed people are eligible for tax credits, as I am because I want to make sure my service beiefits all the kids I look after.

Thanks for the advise, she has said she willing to talk about it so I will definatly talk to her asap. Just wanted to check my facts. In the holidays it would be four under fives then more school age kids. I do trust her, but not sure if its best for my baby. It's been helpful to have another opinion.

She can take on more, but not new business, unless she has permission, which under new EYFS would be unusual.

New business, by the way, does not include siblings. If either you or the other child's parents already have a child there, it's continuity of care and perfectly acceptable.

The training for the new EYFS has been appalling in many areas so I would think this is a genuine mistake, if mistake it is.

Tanith is right about siblings.

A lot of CMs have been confused by the rules about ratios in the new EYFS. Additional children do have to fall within a certain criteria (much the same as before the change).

Loads of us have 3 under 5s and 3 school age, omfgkillmenow. It's always been the usual ratio and some of us with variations have coped perfectly well with more.

The subject of how many children we can care for is continuing to cause huge confusion both to parents and c/ms alike

Please refer to EYFS 2012 (page 21) it is in exceptional circumstances and not ae 'the norm'
We do not have 'variations' any more or 'dispensation' and this will show in our new certificate when it is sent to us
The c/ms needs to assess her practice, resources and equipment and has to discuss with parents who may or may not agree
Some c/ms will not care for more than 3...it is up to us to decide

Please contact Ofsted if in doubt
Also bear in mind that having 5 under 5 means we have only 1 place for school children and we would have to give notice to those families who need wrap around care and holiday cover...
Which c/m is prepared to do? some of our school children may have been with us for years and years

Italiana is spot on.

It is for exceptional circumstances only. I have 3 under 5s every day and have 4 under 5s sometimes for continuity of care. It's not a blanket allowance.

Please do ring Ofsted with your queries, that's what they're there for.

always makes me smile that me as a nanny can have 4 under 5 but as a cm often they cant unless special permission

obv the children i would have would be related but still dont see the difference tbh

But you could have 2 3-child families in a share, blondes and a CM wouldn't be allowed that even for 2 families unless they'd always had at least one child from each family.

Phoned ofsted, it's a no-no. Also with the holiday children its going over the 6 under eight rule (so breacking two Ofsted rules). Right now it's more of a red flag that this hasn't been checked out with Ofsted before offering out the place. Also that the other perents at the setting are so flippant about it. Is she still insured if going against Ofsted? Am I right to be concerned? We are chatting it over but tbh its really shacken my faith in her now.

Tanith is right.

2boys, if you are struggling to work out what the ratios can be, then phone your local authority's early years department. OFSTED will not give you any more info than has been given above.

CMs no longer ask OFSTED for variations under the revise EYFS.

CMs can UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES exceed the 6 children under the age of 8 rule. NEVER.

BUT: a CM can have 4 under the age of 5 if one of them is his or her own child OR is two of the children are siblings. Also, in EXCEPTIONAL circumstances, a CM may have 4 under the age of 5. All the time, though, this may not exceed 6 under the age of 8.

Your prospective CM is correct: she may have her baby AND 3 other children under the age of 5.

Kittythames is right, too. Sorry to have overlooked you!

I agree that the revised EYFS training has been crap.

No she wouldn't be insured if she breaks the terms of her registration
The variations as others have said are for continuity of care in exceptional circumstances only and not for new business and not going over 6 under 5 ever. In order to grant the exception the cm must do a full risk assessment, evidence how they will meet each child's needs and consult with all parents. In addition the cm must meet the space requirements in the EYFS. There is a factsheet on the Ofsted website that they have issued to clarify the EYFS which is clear as mud in places lol
www.ofsted.gov.uk/resources/factsheet-childcare-numbers-and-ages-of-children-providers-early-years-and-childcare-registers-may-c

Just phoned my LEA as well. My childminder wrong.

She could take on another baby if she already had three under five

• if it was her baby she was pregnant with and she wanted to keep on the existing children and care for her new baby.

• Or if one of the children there had a sibling, she could take the sibling on. But its four biological seperate children.

I don't think I would be happy if there was four under five because of the logistics. But in this case it's more that rules are not being followed.

I paid to retain a place which (she had three under five but one left to start school, that is the place I am paying her to hold). She has now offered out another place to another mum and my baby will be starting when I return to work. The other baby maybe starting before mine or after. How come I know more about this than she does? So maybe this is a perfectly inncent mistake, I really do hope so. But the more I think about it, the more I wonder why she couldn't have just checked this all out herself?

It could be a genuine mistake, because many CMs are confused about the new rules with EYFS. Your Local Authority could have helped by running training... maybe they will now.

C/ms are concerned about the 5 under 5...
we do not want this ratio as it will destroy the very fabric of childminding...it will also mean less spaces for school children...I am not in favour of this.

We have a high ratio (1:3) because of our type of home based care.... but, my opinion, 4 under 5 would be acceptable as it was before with dispensation and as long as the c/m is experienced and has enough resources.

The problem here is that the EYFS is open to intepretation and many will not understand it well...it may also be open to abuse and, unlike before, when Ofsted checked our dispensation (although the process was beaurocratic, stifling in red tape and a waste of money) no one will do so now.

Parents who are concerned about this increase in numbers should voice their opinions 'very strongly' both to Ofsted (although they do not write the EYFS) and also the DfE before they come out with proposals ...write to E Truss MP whose idea it is to increase numbers!!

Parents should also sign the anti deregulation petition and start their own..these are your children we the c/ms want protected!!

This is a money saving exercise by this govt...5 under 5 will NOT reduce the cost of childcare...it is the vicious cuts the govt is making that are proving expensive...many ways to reduce costs to parents !

Parents could also sign the petition for the govt to increase the childcare vouchers from £55 per week to £75...that would reduce costs rather than asking c/ms to lower what, are in my view, low fees already for hard work and committment to our yougest !

A four year old who is in full time school counts as an over-five, if that makes any difference.