Advice from experienced nannies please - reasonable expectations?

[eleanorofaquitaine]

We have employed nannies before. They have each stayed with us for over two years before moving on for life changing reasons - we are still in touch with them and they rate us as a fair employer. We completely respect the profession of being a nanny and pay at the top end including tax etc (even though we are not high earners ourselves); we work in partnership in the parenting role and do not regard them as "employees" but trusted partners in caring for our children. We were really clear in advertising for the job that although the children would be at school we pay for a full day so some reasonable housekeeping duties will be required. By this we mean maintaining the children's areas and laundry, cooking their meals, keeping the bathroom clean (we use our en-suite) and vacuuming and dusting. We would also give lots of time off if I am working from home. However, what I have noticed is if the dishwasher needs emptying (because I had set it going before going to bed) it is not emptied for the three days I am away (she handwashes instead); if I have put children's clothes in to tumble overnight it is left and any other laundry is left to hang up for me then to air and iron. In addition she brings her own one year old daughter to work and so is often distracted by having to keep her out of mischief. I really want to make things work and I have restated expectations but it would really useful to get some reaction from any one who has a bit more experience. My instinct is that I am getting essentially wrap-around care but paying for full time.

Have you spoken with her?
Sat down and had a cuppa and a 'review'?
Discussing the things you think she could/should be doing and what she feels the job involves?
It sounds as if communication may be the problem rather than inability/unwillingness to do the work.

Hello and thank you for your reply. My frustration is that I have done exactly that. I have been really clear, there is a proper contract, we drafted a guide to the job and had a very clear conversation at the interview and at the review. Her response was that she will not do anything for the adults in the house and whilst I completely respect that she does not want to become a general skivvy, I would have hoped that a conscientious nanny would want to be fulfilling some sort of role during the hours she is paid for when the children are at school. We are not asking her to do anything that was not opening discussed at interview and at the review but I am drawing a blank.

Ok, so what you are looking for is a nanny housekeeper.
Have you raised that with her?
Along the lines of "I don't think this is working out as I expected......"
And what's your period of notice?!!

That's a really good point. I have not used that term "nanny housekeeper" partly because we do not expect the nanny to do that much for us. We're still in the probationary period so it's one week's notice. I am beginning to come to the conclusion that it may not work out. I think she leapt at our job because we were prepared for her to bring her daughter and was not realistic with herself about what the role actually required her to do.

I do think your nanny is being a bit unreasonable.
From what you are saying, I think you do not have unrealistic expectations and are very clear what you want and what you expect.
I used to be a nanny for 13 years and in my last employment I was for 9 years. When all kids finally went to school, there was nothing really for me to do but I was still being paid the full day. My boss never asked me to anything else, but I myself thought I should do something and did way more then you describe.
I think she should definitely do the stuff you want her to do!
"dont do anything for the adults" remark - wtf?
I found that response very strange and feel she just think she has got a cushy job where she can bring her child and look after her while she should do something else.
And if she were to be a houskepper - that would involve more proper cleaning.
So she has got it really good!

I would probably be looking for a new nanny if I am honest...

Good luck!

Thank you for your comment. It makes me feel more confident that we are being reasonable.

If she is not fulfilling her job description I would get rid.

Your job description is IMO perfectly reasonable. Most nannies will empty the dishwasher if you set it overnight or shift stuff from the washing machine/tumble dryer/hanging rail. They may not iron it and put it away but they shouldn't just let it fester. It sounds like she's being petty.

mmm yes, you could be right. Here is something else that I didn't put into my original post - When I said I would do the school run so she didn't have to come in for an early start her reaction was - "great, OK I'll come in at 1pm as dd has her lunch at 12" rather than "when would you like me to come?" which is what my old nanny would say. I was going to suggest a ten o'clock start but because I'm feeling a bit worn down by it all I let it go.

sorry just looked at that last post and it's misleading - I meant just one day not completely rescheduling her hours!

I used to take my 11mth old to work and my charges were 13mths and 4yo. I would do all nursery duties ie. clean, dust Hoover the children's bedrooms and playroom, do all their washing and ironing and cook for them. I would load/unload the dishwasher, sort and fold any washing in the machine or dryer, mop the kitchen floor as needed, make sure work surfaces were clean and tidy. I didn't do heavy duty cleaning as the family had a cleaner once a week but I kept it up together as well as looking after the children and going to toddler groups etc.

Your nanny is taking the mick and you should either clamp down now or get rid. It's a privilege to be able to take your child to work, not a right and she should, IMO, be doing everything in her power to do everything required of her. You sound more than reasonable and she needs to do some work!

As a Nanny caring for 3 children, 2 of whom are under 5, not a Nanny Housekeeper - I would do:

maintaining the children's areas - make the children's beds
general laundry, including children's bedding (no ironing)
cooking their meals
I sweep and vac on occasion
if the dishwasher needs emptying I will empty it. I will also fill it, put it on, of leave for parents to complete filling, depending on how much is in it.

So given that those I see as being all fairly usual nanny duties for a nanny who is caring for children all day... if all your children are at school, adding on some duties on top of that such as cleaning the bathroom, dusting, ironing, doe not sound unreasonable to me.

As Frackel says, if the job description was clear enough then she is not fulfilling that job description. She is in probation period, so either bucks her idea up or she leaves.

Doing some of the tasks with her own 1 year old in tow could well present problems. However if things are timed right, then I would still expect all those things to get done over the course of a week.

Why does she not have set hours of work? Or does she have set hours? I would suggest you tell her what time she is to arrive... not leave it up to her. Say something along the lines of "I'm working from home a bit in the morning, is it possible for you to come in at 10am, rather than 8am?" Also consider if it's even sensible to do that... even if you are doing the school run, she has domestic duties to do so it's not a problem her being there at usual time is it? I realise that you may have been trying to be nice but it messes with routine. She may be better at doing things routinely, as may her child.

Thank you. I should say she does have set hours of work it was just this once that I suggested a later start as it is easier for me to get some work done without the one year old in the house. I did not have chance to breathe before she stated when she was going to turn up.

Blimey.. she sounds like a real jobsworth. Unfortunately I think you are going to have to get rid of her... this should be the honeymoon period when she's trying at least to impress you - she's not, and it's likely only going to get worse.

I've had nannies who bring their own children, and you have to work at it to make sure that all concerned are happy, but if she's putting her child before yours / your hours already, then the writing is very much on the wall I'm afraid.

I look after three school age children who are twins and their brother ,they are very close in age. When they were younger I actually didn t have much time for anything during the day apart from the usual cooking and keeping all the childrens rooms and clothes etc clean and tidy.on top of playing and keeping them happy,the twins have been at school for a year with their brother and as I am being paid full time for the day as Nick says when you are at home I see nothing wrong in helping out more, including the parents ironing and whizzing the hoover ,most nannies I know empty the dishwasher,She does seem to need you to actually spell it out to her what you want her to do she is very lucky to have a job where she can bring her child and to be paid for the entire day.

Can I say thank you very much to everyone who has replied and given some helpful advice. It is reassuring that the consensus from the nanny community is that we are not unreasonable!

Agree, jobsworth. And it's purely an attitude thing and I'm not sure if you can change someone's basic attitude to work, I'm afraid.

If you were expecting her to do cooking and housework and errands all day while the kids were at school, that would be a Nanny/housekeeper job and that would mean paying her a lot more. Plus I don't see how she could do that and have her one year old with her. But you are asking her to do a couple of entirely reasonable things a day and I think most Nannies do similar. We've always asked ours to empty the dishwasher, and if I've left a load of washing in the washing machine they will move it into the dryer then hang it up so they can put the kids' wash on, for instance. But that's a give and take thing, really. If there's a load of the kids' washing in the tumble dryer on a Friday night I'll take it upstairs and hang it up and then put it away when it's dry. I don't unload it into a plastic bag and leave it around meaningfully for the Nanny. And every night I restack the dishwasher because I am a world champion at Diswasher Tetris. I don't eg take the Nanny's badly stacked plates out and leave them for her to deal with in the morning to make room for my own washing up. Which is precisely the level of pettiness she's getting into here.

There's a halfway house which is negotiable - tbh I've never asked anyone to push a hoover round for me, or to clear up after DH and I rather than the kids. And some Nannies will do that, to keep busy, and some won't. And that's between them and their employers. But what you are asking is entirely reasonable and if she is too jobsworth to do it, tbh I think she's in the wrong job. Not that she shouldn't be caring for children, maybe she's excellent at that. But you have to feel that a Nanny is part of the family and you are all batting for the same team - whereas this one sounds as if she's batting for the opposition.

get rid of her

She just sounds really lazy to me. I have been babysitting and emptied the dishwasher, and she's there all day. She should be making more of an effort as you are kind enough to let her bring her DC with her. You sound lovely don't let her take advantage.

Another vote for looking for someone else.

I had exactly the same job as your current nanny and loved it but I often only saw the parents very fleetingly. Do you have a communication book/diary if not you should. Then you can put a please empty dishwasher, hang laundry etc in there until she gets the idea about what's expected and if she doesn't it's right there in front of you what has and hasn't been done. Ask her to write in it too, say it helps you keep upto date. I actually introduced this to my last job as things/requirements changed so often.

It sounds like she doesn't want to/have time to do what you want her to do during school hours as she has a one year old to look after - her own! I would get rid pronto.

choices are:-

1. Get rid. TBH I'd be minded to do this - if she is like this during her probation period (when she is trying to impress) she is going to be hell afterwards
2. Hand her a formal letter, stating that you clearly explained during the recruitment process that the role involved helping around the family home when the children are at school, and that this role was for X hours per week, covering a number of household duties unrelated to the children. As such, and as verbally explained, you expect these hours to be performed and the following duties to be done automatically every day ...XXXX.... Also point out in the letter that these extra duties are not optional but are part of the contracted role, and that any continued refusal to perform these duties will mean a failure to pass the probation period. If you feel minded you might also want to add that as a considered employer you are perfectly happy for her to bring her child to work but that if this means that any of her roles are not performed adequately then you will need to have a discussion as to whether she should be seeking alternative employment, although you hope that this will not be the case and that it is your continued hope that the nanny will be able to combine both looking after her own child and performing the roles required in the job to everyone's satisfaction...

Gut feeling though - she thinks she is entitled to call the shots and this doesn't bode well, long term.

Oh, and if she comes back saying the contract said 'nanny' and this stuff isn't related to childcare, then your next step is to say 'fine. You are hereby dismissed, I will type up a letter now. Please leave at the end of the week'.

Legally you can dismiss for any non-discriminatory reason you like during first 12 months of employment - our last AP was sacked for picking his nose*. It may be harsh to sack her but she is being the hard nosed one to start with by refusing to do reasonable stuff.

*disclaimer. He was making kids' food at the time.

Wow, thank you. I think the communication book is a great idea. Used to have one with our first nanny who was new to the career but didn't for our second who just hit the ground running.
Helpful thoughts about a specific letter etc as well.

What sort of contract do you have? I mean as in where did you get it from and how "standard" is it?

Disciplinary process is pretty much fixed in EU law these days. I agree w Still Squiffy that you can offload up to 12m, but still if you're going to do something quasi-disciplinary, it's best to follow the process if you can. And ours is actually written into our contract. Under that, there would be a verbal warning before a formal written warning, and the nature of the disciplinary framework would be made very clear to the employee. You may consider previous discussions as verbal warning or not. But it's worth thinking about.

I'm not mentioning so much because I think you will get in trouble legally - you're being very reasonable - but more because the disciplinary process can actually be quite helpful. We had a MH once who was a bit of a slacker, and DH just wanted to get rid but we went through the formal disciplinary process, gave her a verbal warning, explained the next steps, expectations, consequences etc. She actually pulled her socks right up and went on to be very good. So though it feels like you are just going through the motions and it's pointless admin because the situation can't be rescued - sometimes it can.