Is this too much to expect of an au pair? And if not where do I find a good one?

[AubergineArtichokeAsparagus]

I am thinking of getting an au pair in Sept. We have had a nanny for four years and she is great but my pay is frozen and its getting harder and harder to pay the nanny's salary. I know I would not be able to rely on an au pair like I rely on the nanny but does this level of responsibility sounds OK for an au pair. OUr children would be just 6 and nearly 4.

• I would start giving the children breakfast each day but would have to leave at 8.15am so the au pair would supervise the end of breakfast and be responsible for getting the children out of the house;
• She would have to walk both to school/nursery Mon - Thurs (same building, 15 minute walk);
• She would have to pick the nearly 4 year old up at noon Mon - Thurs and give her lunch and amuse her all afternoon;
• She would have to pick the 6 year old up at 3.30pm Mon-Thurs and either deposit her at a club or a friend or amuse her;
• She would be responsible for each child until 6.30pm Mon - Thurs. This would include giving them dinner.

She would have Fri-Sun off work, although may occasionally be asked to babysit.

Does that sound too much for an au pair? If so who could do such a job other than a full time nanny?

I think that does sound like to much for an au pair. It works out at 30 hours a week sole charge, with only 3 hours "off" in the mornings. (Would you expect them to be on call if either child needed to be picked up early from school/nursery? If so, then that is not really time off anyway....) I think you need a part-time nanny and pay them hourly. Might be tricky to find someone, but it could suit someone who goes to college etc in the mornings....

There are rules about the amount of hours an au pair can work, I think. They are usually in this country to learn English and most of the aps I know either spend all morning or all afternoon at college.

Have you looked at any au pair agencies online?

You probably need a childminder, looking at your requirements.

Given that there's now no real defined concept, legally, of an 'au pair' (used to be a legal term and used on visas - now it doesn't really exist), then essentially, I'm sure you could find someone that was willing to do that kind of routine. Our au pair doesn't have so much to do in the daytime, but is in sole charge from half three onwards til DH or I get home around 8pm. Some people are happy to do more, others want the bare minimum.

Where are you based and what kind of salary/perks were you thinking? There are a large number of au pair agencies as well as a lot of websites (au pair world, gumtree etc) where you can find au pairs. A lot of it is simply luck of the draw - some come via an agency and are great, others useless. Some come from gumtree and are brilliant, others not so much.

Much too much.

Way too much. That is a nanny job, you will have to wait until they are both in ft school.

In general it is fine but I would question her looking after the 4 year old each afternoon from noon. Is there an option for her to stay longer in the afternoon or perhaps go to a childminder after school for a few hours. I think that you need to look for a slightly older au-pair and preferably one on her 2nd or 3rd aupair job but would need to pay accordingly. I have an au-pair who has sole charge for significant periods of time but she is in her mid twenties and has been with me for a long time and didn't start with such duties.

It all depends how much you are going to pay her!

Well, au-pair pluses do up to 40 hours per week. There is nothing illegal about what you've suggested, contrary to what some posters have said.

In your favour is the age range you're talking about. Amusing a four year old is much much different from having say a one or two year old plus the older child. Can you extend your four year old's hours at the nursery?

You won't be able to pay the standard au pair rate for that sort of job given the long stretches of sole charge though. You want someone to stay, at the end of the day, and be happy looking after your children.

The agency I have used before, Abacus, has a category called mother's helps who are basically au pairs who work the sort of hours you're talking about but recommend pay of £160 p/w (net). Their English might not be up to much though and they're SUPPOSED to be supervised but I doubt they're much different from the usual set of au pairs who do have after school sole-charge. If you speak to Debbie there she could talk you through it. It's an option we've looked at in the past.

The MUCH BIGGER problem you may have, though, is that while you're struggling to pay the nanny you can't really make her redundant and then hire someone else to do exactly the same job. So, you would have to make significant adjustments and whatever you do change you will have to offer to your current nanny. Mr Anchovy knows the legal side of things...but this is the general gist of it. YOu can't just replace her with someone else. This is not a wrist slap it's just to alert you to something to be aware of.

Just to be clear, when people say au pair plus's work 35-40 hours, it also includes stuff like hoovering etc light household chores.

It should NOT mean that that whole time is spent on childcare esp one on one childcare.

This is the distinction.

Thanks all.

I think maybe DH & I cld juggle hours so one of us did drop off each day. Then au pair has mornings free and 4 yr old 12-6.30 & 6 year old 3.30-6.30 for four days a week.

I pay our live out nanny £26k a year so cld afford to pay the au pair a decent amount yet still save. Perks would be a lovely big bedroom with en suite in desirable part of London, 3 day weekends, no responsibilities in school holidays so long vacations, wifi, gym membership. That it really. What wage wld be appropriate for that set-up?

LadyHarriet, I'm a bit alarmed by ur emoyment law point. Nanny is live out so I could offer her the new terms but she would clearly say no. Can I not then give her notice and a lovely reference and move to an au pair on the basis our kids are older now and a nanny is less necessary plus the real reason which is that as a public servant I am being squeezed and can't afford our current cost of living?

Could you maybe go for a newly qualified live in? Then you get a nanny at a lower price?

I think you can change the terms of employment, but you must offer your current nanny first refusal. If she says no then you are free to look elsewhere.

I think a live-in nanny may be your best option.

You will have to pay your existing nanny redundancy which is likely to be 4-6 weeks pay and you should go through a fair procedure which in your case is likely to mean talking to her, giving her sufficient notice, offering her the live-in job and giving her paid time off for interviews.

Couple more questions/points:

• what about school holidays?
• if you expect a part-time employee to babysit on a day they are not otherwise working that is an additional days work for which they accrue holiday; babysitting on days off should be paid extra.
• it doesn't matter what you call it, au pair, live-in nanny or mothers help, you are going to end up paying somewhere between £7 and £10 per hour gross, less an amount for board and lodging that is likely to be £75-£100 a week (the contract should not show this separately though). This should be substantially less than you are paying now overall.

What about a cm. I do just this for 2 siblings, the only difference is its at my house.

We write into our au pair 'invitation letter/contract' that the year will include childcare coverage for the weeks the children are off school, and then we agree an overtime rate for these hours. Plus the Saturday evening babysitting rate.

One thing to bear in mind is continuity of care - would your children respond well to a new person every year? I am eternally grateful to mine for being easy going and liking everyone so this helps. But if your kids take longer to get to know people/are more unsure it's not insurmountable but could be trickier.

It's a big investment to make in YOUR time as well. I can't believe that in about six weeks I already have to start thinking about recruiting our Sept au pair pair...It can be really exhausting settling them in every year - knowing that two to three months of every year is going to be devoted to that.

I'm not trying to put you off, we're on our third ap, it's just to note a couple of points that you might want to consider in addition to the cash issue.

Gosh it all sounds so complicated when written out.

Redundancy? Really? Would that apply if I got pregnant again & no longer needed a nanny? I want to treat our nanny right but I had never heard of redundancy for a nanny given sufficient notice. It would be very hard to pay her for 6 weeks while paying a new live-in nanny/au pair.

I think I better ring round some agencies.

I would love to keep our nanny. The kids adore her. But it's just not practical. To pay her at the moment we have had to quit the gym, quit Sky TV, shop much more frugally and forsake holidays, new clothes etc. That's not sensible when we have room for someone to live-in. I will miss my own space though. And the freedom that comes with having a committed nanny that you trust.

If you got pregnant and no longer needed childcare, then you would have a genuine redundancy situation; you genuinely no longer need the job she is doing.

In this case, you plan to employ someone to do essentially the same job, so you don't have a genuine redundancy situation - you still need someone doing that job, and you can't just give her notice for no reason. If you have consulted with her and offered her the new role and at that point, if she rejects it, then it's a redundancy situation, and you have to pay her accordingly. Legally, if you don't follow this process, she could sue you for unfair dismissal, which is likely to cost you somewhat more than 4-6 weeks salary.

Could you manage it so the redundancy falls over summer holidays, so only one payment as you say there is no childcare need then?

Doesn't matter how 'genuine' the reason is, after one year of employment you get a redundancy payment.

There isn't much advice tailored for nanny employers, but read this ACAS guide as a start.