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Is this gross negligence or am I over-reacting?

53 replies

thinkofthemoney · 16/12/2011 19:29

Hello, can anyone help - nanny or employer?
We have had our nanny for just over a year. I have never gelled with her and there have been a few minor teething issues but she seems to take good care of our two children (2 and 4 yrs). They never seem overly happy to see her or sad to see her go but happy enough IYKWIM.
Anyway, today a neighbour we know to say hello/chat to called round almost in tears. She said she was unsure whether or to to tell me but 2 weeks ago she was walking her dog at the local river and saw my 4 year old dd sat on a wall directly bordering a very high lock (loch? sorry about spelling!) all by herself.
She ran over as she was leaning backwards and thought she was going to fall in. It is about a 10 foot drop into deep water here. She was looking round for me or my husband but no-one was to be seen. By this time a small crowd had gathered and then about 5 mins later (she can't be sure but says it was some time) our nanny came running from out of sight at least 150m and from behind a very heavy gate (the kind to keep cows out).
She then really told off my daughter for disappearing and the neighbour was quite cross as she felt our nanny had placed dd in a highly dangerous position.
The nanny had been chatting with another nanny friend and obviously hadn't realised dd was missing.
Our nanny has never mentioned a word of this to us.
Now I feel sick that if the neighbour had not been there our daughter may have fell in. A long time ago the lock keepers son of a similar age fell in and died.
Now I never let my children out of my sight around water and my initial feeling is I can not trust her to have my children again.
Clearly I need to get her side, however our neighbour has no reason to make this up and it was obviously quite distressing for her to tell us - she did not want to cause trouble as she realised it may mean our nanny losing her job.
So do you think this is a sacking offence? I'm not sure I could trust her again and am wondering if there have been other instances she's not told us about.
It is also going to be a nightmare getting childcare over Christmas - there is no way I either of us can take time off work and we have no family so I need to be sure if sacking for gross negligence is the right thing or not.
Opinions gratefully recieved - thanks for reading of you have reached the end!

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Laquitar · 17/12/2011 12:21

'but this neigbour has no reason to lie'.

Hmm

  • Some people like drama
  • Some people like to judge
  • Some people like to find faults with their friend's/neigbour's nanny ether because they cant afford a nanny themselves or they don't want to work
  • some neigbours are craving the nanny's job

If it was so serious she wouldn't wait 2 weeks.

Also, every time i read this short of threads i'm wondering why the nanny hasn't mention it. Either it didn't happen like this or the nanny is thick.

If it is true then yes i would get rid straight now.

thinkofthemoney · 17/12/2011 12:51

Laquitar, yes that thought definitely entered my head. I need to hear the nannies side obviously.

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nannynick · 17/12/2011 13:38

Call nanny and ask her to call you/or visit if local at a convenient time as an allagation has been made against them and you need to know the situation from their side.

Will you suspend them on full pay pending investigation? If they work Thursday and it subsequently goes to tribunal then I would wonder what the tribunal would feel about you continuing to have them care for your child. By having them work thursday I feel it may be harder for you to claim you felt your child was unsafe being with nanny.

We don't know the geographics of things. With luck you do, so look at what risks were taken. Why were they at a place near the canal lock? Did nanny know it was there, was the risk acceptable - heavy gate, your dd had to deliberately open that.

Yes nanny should have been keeping a good eye on your DD but your DD may like having some independence. It's a fine line between wrapping them in cotton wool and giving them some freedom. Look at the risks involved - did nanny deliberately put your DD at risk, or did it happen by accident?

Why did DD run? Would she have done that for you? Will she do it again? Your DD is not innocent by the sounds of it, she ran, she deliberately opened a gate. Why?

If this is the last straw, then dismiss with notice if you so wish to do so. Dismissal without notice may be more tricky, as the nanny could claim that it was an accident, that your dd ran away. They didn't deliberately endanger your dd by taking them to the lock and letting her sit on the wall.

thinkofthemoney · 18/12/2011 15:04

update: I have spoken to our nanny who essentially gave the same story.
She said dd had ran away but she couldn't run after her as she had my son with her. I said that I was concerned re the length of time my daughter was unsupervised and out of sight of nanny and that in actual fact she was perched on the wall of the lock and could have fallen in.
I also said I was concerned she hadn't told us and she said ' she thought she had'. I appreciate my dd ran off and therefore is at fault too however not sure why she didn't tell us.
Have respoken to neighbour who has clarified that nanny was chatting to her friend as she came through the gate and came into sight- and NOT running as I thought she'd said. In fact neighbour said she was gesturing frantically to the nanny to indicate she had dd but nanny seemed nonplussed and just carried on walking over.
It is this that has upset me and nanny did not answer when I asked her about it twice.
Anyway, not sure where' this leaves me and what a horrible situation a week before xmas. I don't want to put anyone out of work at this time but feel the trust has gone now.
Thanks again for all the replies.

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thinkofthemoney · 18/12/2011 15:13

Oh and I forgot to add that reason the neighbour was unsure about telling us is that she didn't know at the time this was our nanny, thought it may have been one of our friends or relatives.

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Dozer · 18/12/2011 18:31

I would sack her immediately! Her response just makes it even more worrying IMO. Total bollocks that ahe thought she'd told you. She sounds slack.

I can understand your neighbour waiting to tell you.

Dozer · 18/12/2011 18:32

Also, your dd ran away and the nanny noticed this (she hadn't snuck away) and didn't go after her?! She could've given the other Dc to her friend for a moment, but instead she chose to let your dd go out of sight! Shocking.

breatheslowly · 18/12/2011 18:45

I don't know your personal circumstances, but if she was my nanny she would be gone. Out of the house you don't lose sight of a child of 5, even moreso if the child isn't yours and you are being paid to care for them. And forget about it being Christmas. If you'd sack her in February for it then you should sack her for it now.

keepmumshesnotsodumb · 18/12/2011 19:07

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

rubyslippers · 18/12/2011 20:13

Why prolong things?

Her explanation is not satisfactory - her behaviour was not acceptable

Liluri · 18/12/2011 20:17

It sounds like your nanny is not diligent enough to safely care for your children, so you have no choice but to terminate her employment.

Aside from the incident itself, which could have ended so tragically, it is inexcusable that the nanny did not tell you about it.

Untrustworthy.

Blondeshavemorefun · 19/12/2011 12:19

i was also dubious why the neighbour took 2 weeks to mention this incident - obv as a paid employee the nanny should be on her toes at all time - but so should any adult regardless if friend/neighbour or employee

children do wander off at times - even to the most diligent nanny and its not if she allowed your dd to play near water - saying that it also sounds as if your nanny wasnt that worried - and the reply saying she had your ds with her is pathetic - she should have left him with her friend

i would also be having words with your dd - she should know not to run off and open gates at the age of 4 and stay with the adult - but obv the nanny is at fault

ultimately your trust has gone in your nanny and therefore this nanny is not going to work looking after your children anymore, as you will always be wondering what if ...........

littleducks · 19/12/2011 12:36

It doesnt sound satisfactory at all, if I was looking after a 4yr old who ran off, i would be chasing them, either shoving the other child at my friend or picking them up and taking them with me. I would be disciplining the child in some way for running off and then telling the parents so that they could reinforce the message and keep a closer eye so it didnt happen to them too.

I can kind of understand why a neighbour would feel awkward telling you the story if they thought the nanny was a relative, but agree it would have been easier if they told you at the time.

Laquitar · 19/12/2011 12:44

You seem very nice person saying that you don't want to put her out of work at this time but it is not you doing this to her, she did it to herself, it is her fault she is losing her job.

After reading your last post i would feel the same as you (re trust).

thebody · 19/12/2011 14:53

i think you definatly need to talk to your nanny and also give your dd a rocket as well, shes 4 so she shouldnt be running off like this, i would tell her sh will be in reins if she runs off again,, but of course its always the adults responsibility to watch the child.

why was the neigbour in tears??? a bit dramatic isnt it??

get nannys side and then act but remember there are employment laws to be met and dont think you can just sack her on a neigbours say so.

thinkofthemoney · 19/12/2011 17:13

The body, I have got the nannies side and she didn't saying different really. She wasn't aware dd was on the wall by the river as she couldn't see her for a good few minutes. The reason she couldn't see her is because although she saw her run off, she didn't run after her as she had my son (despite their being another nanny present who could have took him in an emergency situation).
The neighbour has clarified that when nanny came into sight she was still chatting and certaintly not running. My nanny has mo explanation for this nor for why we werent told other than 'she thought she had told us'.
Four year old has been well and truly told off, another reason I would have liked to have been told.
Wrt neighbour, I think she felt bad about interfering/ potentially luring someone their job, and didn't know it was our nanny at first (thought she was a family member so felt not her place to 'report' to us).
I'm still unsure where this leaves me and what to do though.

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thinkofthemoney · 19/12/2011 17:15

Apologies for terrible gramar/spelling on my I phone that has a mind of it's own!

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hocuspontas · 19/12/2011 17:20

Maybe the nanny wasn't running because she clocked the neighbour before the neighbour clocked her and, to the nanny, the child appeared safe with everyone around her. Not saying this is what happened but just trying to offer a different viewpoint?

nannynick · 19/12/2011 17:24

ToftheM - you need to decide if this situation has put you off continuing to employ this nanny, or if having discussed it with your nanny that you feel it won't happen again.

If you feel the trust has gone, then you need to decide if it's gone to the extent where you no longer wish the nanny to provide any care at all. If so I think you can give notice under contract and pay in lieu of notice. You then need to find alternative childcare, which might take time.

Blondeshavemorefun · 19/12/2011 18:03

good point hocus

woahthere · 19/12/2011 22:58

Hi. Im a childminder. There is no way on earth that I would lose sight of any of my children for 30 seconds and if I was out somewhere where I knew there was a canal I would be like a meerkat! Its totally unacceptable in my view.

StillSquiffy · 20/12/2011 11:12

Immediate sacking for gross negligence is the only option. Quite shocked that anyone would think otherwise. Yes, people make mistakes but nannies are paid to keep your children safe and if they endanger your children they lose their jobs. I might have felt differently if a whole bunch of 'circumstances' other than negligence had caused the child to be in danger (eg emergency with other child, child sneaking out of house whilst nanny preparing lunch, that kind of thing). But that didn't happen. Your nanny was negligent, and even when she realised your dd was missing she the compounded it with more negligence. And then lied about it.

If she's like this and obviously doesn't think she did anything terrible, what happens next time?

StillSquiffy · 20/12/2011 11:14

You also don't need to pay notice in cases of gross negligence. But you do need to pay accrued holiday pay.

thinkofthemoney · 20/12/2011 14:49

Thanks squiffy.
I've spoken to ACAS who agree it is gross misconduct. However, there is no such thing as immediate dismissal it seems! We have to gather written evidence from the witnesses, give the nanny 48 hours notice in writing of a disciplinary meeting, allow her to bring a union rep, then we can dismiss!
This will take us right up to Xmas eve!
How horrific to sack someone on Xmas eve. I feel I should give paid notice simply as it is Xmas but have been advised that this would count against me should nanny appeal a gross misconduct decision.

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MrAnchovy · 20/12/2011 15:01

ACAS have given you best practice. If you don't do that she could potentially have a case for improper procedure, but her damages in this situation would be minimal.

However in most cases with an employee of less than 1 years servicve where there has not been a deliberate act (e.g. hitting a child), I think most employers would be inclined to give pay in lieu of notice.