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Paid childcare

Discuss everything related to paid childcare here, including childminders, nannies, nurseries and au pairs.

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Original poster

Payment over Christmas holidays

27 replies

shinypants · 12/12/2011 14:03

I use a CM 3 days per week, this year Boxing Day and 2nd Jan fall on a Monday which is a contracted day, however there is nothing in my contract re Public or Bank Holidays or payment for them.

My CM wants me to pay full fees for these two days, her reason being to make it fair to other parents who will be paying full fees as they are taking holidays. Think they mostly work Public Sector.

CM is not available to work these days, but I do have to work so I would have to pay for childcare twice.

Does anyone know what statutory obligations I have regards paying for these days? Or any advice as to what I should do? Thanks

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Original poster

shinypants · 12/12/2011 14:48

Also I won't get an enhanced rate of pay for working those days, just usual flat rate.

OP posts:

south345 · 12/12/2011 15:19

If she's not available she shouldn't charge in my opinion but I don't charge as I don't want to work, if someone needed me to I would charge double. Does she take paid holidays too? Some do and some don't. It really should say in the contract though or she has nothing to prove you agreed to it.

Original poster

shinypants · 12/12/2011 15:48

Thanks for your reply,

I haven't agreed to it as such, we didn't discuss it although did discuss Annual Leave prior to signing contract, which I agreed to and seems very fair, she doesn't charge for her holidays, and charges half for mine.

I would just pay up if I'm obligated to do so, although its going to be tight. But I'm not happy about paying just to be fair to other parents! Maybe she shouldn't charge them to make it fair to me

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HSMM · 12/12/2011 15:54

If it's not in your contract, I don't see how she can charge you ... particularly as you need her and she's not available.

All CMs negotiate their own contracts and have different arrangements for bank holidays.

Original poster

shinypants · 12/12/2011 16:04

Thanks for your reply,

I would just pay up if I'm obligated to do so, although its going to be tight. But I'm not happy about paying just to be fair to other parents! Maybe she shouldn't charge them to make it fair to me

OP posts:

Sarah46uk · 12/12/2011 17:36

I am a Childminder & payment for holidays is always a nightmare unless it made VERY clear. You don?t want to cause bad feeling but I see it from both sides. It difficult if you have to work. Are you paying for alternative care or are family having your children?
How much does your Childminder mean to your family & children, is it worth causing ill feeling.
I would just say to her you are a bit confused as it doesn?t mention Bank hols in contracts? Maybe you could go half? Good Luck with this tricky issue. I suggest you have a meeting & go through all eventualities on contracts.

MrAnchovy · 12/12/2011 17:45

Well it's not very fair to charge part-timers for Bank Holidays - this always works out badly for part-timers that have Monday as one of their days as most Bank Holidays fall on a Monday - at least 4 out of the 8 each year, and as you point out, over this Christmas there are two more to bring the total to 6 days on which you will pay for childcare that you won't get. For someone that only uses Mondays this would be 12% of the days they are paying for!

Should have been sorted in the contract: there is no applicable statute.

Sarah46uk · 12/12/2011 21:15

What about parents who work Mondays but don?t have to work bank holidays i.e. they work in a bank, doc's receptionist etc. . You could say the same. It?s a can of worms.
You must discuss this calmly and look at the bigger picture.It should have been made clear when you started but this may be this is the first time this issue has come up. I?ve lost a parent through this year?s ago as she got a bee in her bonnet and I dug my heals in. Who suffered? The kids and all of us really as she found it hard to find someone as reliable as me which many years later she admitted.I know money is tight for us all but look at that bigger pic.Sit down & explain how you feel. Don't stew. From a childminder of 21yrs

mamamaisie · 12/12/2011 21:24

I don't work bank holidays but do charge for them. This is how my childminder charged me years ago so when I became a childminder myself I just started doing the same. However, I explain this very clearly to parents at the initial meeting and it is also clearly stipulated in the contract. If it is not in your contract I can't see how your childminder can insist on being payed. On the other hand, as Sarah said, it would be a shame to have a huge falling out so perhaps you could both come to some sort of compromise.

TheWisdomOfSolomum · 12/12/2011 21:27

Sarah thanks for your reply, I will have to pay for childcare on these days, I have explained to my employer and she has arranged for me to work a shorter shift on Boxing Day and in the evening instead of during the day so I can get a babysitter but I will need to pay more than usual for this service. I had already arranged this prior to speaking to CM as I didn't expect her to be available on that day. Which she isn't. But I didn't expect her to want me to pay. On the 2nd Jan I have to work my usual shift. Again CM is not available but wants me to pay.

Just to make clear, I never quibble over any payments and I am happy overall with the service CM provides. I don't want to cause bad feeling but I can't afford to pay out a load of money either.

I did say to CM that it wasn't in contract and could she confirm what happened those weeks. I think she realised herself that she has made a bit of an error.

MrAnchovy I guess my gripe with it is that

a) its not in the contract

b) she wants me to pay because she wants to make it fair for the other parents as they will pay full fees as they are on holiday. Other parent works for Local Authority so is not working because its closed. I don't want to pay nearly £200 to make things "fair" for somebody I don't know from Adam.

I asked about statutory/legal obligations as its my (limited) understanding that this would come into effect in abscence of a contract. Or possibly supercede what was written in a contract anyway in some cases?

TheWisdomOfSolomum · 12/12/2011 21:33

Oh I wouldn't fall out with her over it! But I literally wouldn't be able to make all the payments at once so if she insists then hopefully will ay least agree to let me pay it next month. As its totally unexpected,

My previous CM didn't charge for BHs as she didn't want to work them. She charged for any holidays I took, sickness the DC had etc as I had to pay to retain the place. I have no problem with that whatsoever, but in those cases she was available to work.

TheWisdomOfSolomum · 12/12/2011 21:36

Sorry its still me, what's going on with my name? I haven't had that one for yonks. Ghosts of Christmas past coming back to haunt me. Eeekk.

Sarah46uk · 12/12/2011 21:45

If you are having to pay for other childcare & she had said at one stage she would have the children then i think yes she is being a little unfair. She needs to have made things clearer & because she had admitted she didnt then she should at least meet you half way and only charge half.

BallerinaBetty · 12/12/2011 22:14

I used to be a childminder and followed a simple rule of full fees for parents holidays/child sickness etc and no fees for my holidays/sickness. Didnt want to work bank holidays so didnt charge for them.

From what you are saying she isnt working and your contract says she doesnt charge for her holidays. If Bank Holidays arent mentioned in the contract and she has told you she will not be available then as far as I can see she is taking it as holiday and therefore you should not pay. She should also not be charging the other parents for those days either.

I would sit down with her and talk it through. It sounds like she has made a mistake in her contracts and not really thought this one through. She obviously doesnt want to take a big drop in her income but that isnt really your problem, just as what the other parents pay or dont pay isnt anything to do with you.

At the very least she should accept she has made a mistake and accept half payment.

MrAnchovy · 12/12/2011 23:09

Sarah46uk it's only a can of worms because some childminders make it so - there is a simple and professional way to charge as a childminder (or in any other profession) which is to charge when your service is available and not to charge when it is not: this is not unfair on anyone.

MrAnchovy · 12/12/2011 23:28

And shinypants/TheWisdomOfSolomum her comment about 'being fair to other parents' is wide of the mark - charging for a service you aren't providing isn't fair to anybody!

But of course you need to handle this sensitively and may need to compromise in order not to damage the relationship irreperably.

I am not sure if I have confused you over what laws may apply - to confirm, there are no laws that apply when you are (genuinely) using the services of someone that is self employed, it is basically up to you to sort things out between you. Some professions have accepted customs and practices that you can look to where something hasn't been discussed and agreed, but as you have seen there is no norm for childminders with almost as many 'rules' as there are minders!

TheWisdomOfSolomum · 13/12/2011 09:18

Thanks again for replies.

I will speak to CM today and explain my position and hopefully come to an agreement. I would pay both days if she would even have them on the 2nd Jan. There again, just because its a holiday that I don't celebrate or really recognise doesn't mean other people don't.

MrAnchovy thanks for clarifying the legal position.

BallerinaBetty · 13/12/2011 10:13

I've actually thinking about this overnight(!)

Seems to me your childminder needs to make a choice. Either she is closed in which case nobody pays for the days she is closed (its irrelevant whether the other parents are off or not) or she is open and charges both days. She cant have it both ways - ie closed to you but still charging you.

Good luck I hope you get it sorted out. And maybe she needs to review her contracts so its all clear because otherwise this is going to happen again isnt it?

TheWisdomOfSolomum · 13/12/2011 16:04

Thanks betty I will hopefully have it sorted one way or another by tomorrow and report back.

Sarah46uk · 14/12/2011 21:43

Mr Anchovy. I hear what you are saying but many childminders do charge for xmas & bank holidays in my area and NCMA say 55% of childminders get 4 weeks paid holiday, so trying to get this is a can of worms when you have shift workers, part time & full time parents.
I work 66 hrs a week & would like to be paid for the few weeks i take off & i do actually only charge for Bank Hols but many parents do agree to this at interview & when you do contarcts but when it comes to paying they make you feel very guilty & do not appreciate what we do for their families. It is very hard to be proffesional when you are dealing with children as to me they are the reason i do this but i also need to earn money. Many parents take advantage of my soft side. CM get closer to families than nurseries its a different relationship.Its very hard to not get involved in their personal lives when they constantly tell you how they cant feed their families if they pay me! Walk a few miles in a cm shoes & you would understand.Its not that cut & dry believe me.I try to be hard but still struggle after 21yrs.

MrAnchovy · 14/12/2011 22:36

I hear what you say Sarah, and there is no WAY I would manage as a childminder, even for a day! I have a huge amount of respect for childminders and what you do.

However that doesn't change the fact that if you charge for Bank Holidays, someone who pays to use your service every Monday might end up paying for 52 days childcare but only getting 46, whereas someone who pays to use your service every Tuesday may get what they pay for. You are charging 13% more for your service on Monday than you are on Tuesday. How is this logical or fair?

The NCMA is part of the reason for the entrenchment of this unfairness - for many years they promoted charging for childminders holidays and Bank Holidays and included this in their standard contracts which they tell you that you have to use unamended in order to benefit from their legal fees cover. Recently, they have caught up with changing work patterns and have begun to realise that if they want to present childminding as a professional service (and the NCMA as a professional body of substance), attitudes have to change.

scarlettsmummy2 · 14/12/2011 22:43

agree with ballerina betty- she should only charge for days she is actually available!! my childminder makes it quite clear that if she is off work, i don't pay. I will have to pay for boxing and new years day this year despite my daughter not going- but that is my decision.

Lalabibaby · 15/12/2011 19:30

sounds as though your CM is confused ... I am a registered CM and it is quite simple .... if the service is open then payment for contracted days is due and if I am not open no payment. That includes my hols and Bank Hols. She can't have her cake and eat it so to speak and if she isn't prepared to work on the BH then she cannot expect to be paid regardless of whether it is a contracted day. Please check your contract carefully .... hope you get it sorted soon

ChitChattingElf · 16/12/2011 11:06

I'm with Mr A, it's not at all fair for someone who uses a CM part time including a Monday. I had that discussion with my CM as I went 2 days a week, Monday being one of them and refused to pay for all of the bank holidays. We agreed to go 50/50 for it.

If a CM were to think it through properly they should just work out what they want to get paid, take out the days they can't earn (holidays and bank holidays) and recalculate their hourly charge based on the remaining days. If they have to lift their rate a bit to cover it, then they should do so. It then makes it clearer for all concerned.

TheWisdomOfSolomum · 19/12/2011 23:25

Little bit of an update

I spoke to CM and explained I couldn't really afford to pay for childcare twice, that there was nothing agreed in contract re paying for BH or PH and that I didn't feel it was fair for her to charge if she wasn't open on those days. I didn't expect her to work on Boxing Day but had assumed I wouldn't be charged for it therefore the money I would usually pay her would go towards alternative childcare.

CM was fine with all this, said she was glad I had approached her with the issue and would rather I came to her straight away with any problems rather than stewing, building resentment etc. She said she will work 2nd Jan (which I will pay as normal) and I offered to pay her half for Boxing Day as a compromise (although she did say I didn't have to pay anything as I was paying for other childcare)

So thanks to everyone for the advice and information, I do value my CM and the good relationship I have with her, and the care she takes of my DC - I appreciate its not an easy job and she deserves her holidays. For me it was purely a financial issue. I'm glad its all sorted out now though!

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