Am I being unreasonable regards holidays?

[curiousJuli]

I have started working for this family in November last year.Before I signed the contract we talked about holidays.I mentioned we normally take holidays around Xmas time and in summer(during half term).

I have requested a day off unpaid for our anniversary as well.

When Xmas came and I mentioned I am taking a week before Xmas and during Xmas,lady turner around and said it will be very difficult and she will have to take unpaid leave etc.so I said ok I will take that week before Xmas as unpaid and the one with bank holidays paid.She said they will have a week off holidays first week in January but that wasn't my choice and was taken out of my leave.

When I asked her if they are planning any holiday around Easter she said no,so I have asked again if I can go in the beginning of March to visit my family.She agreed but gave me a grief again how difficult from work and so on.

So I took it as unpaid again.

Then she sent me e-mail that they are taking a holiday during Easter,and it will be taken out of my leave again.

I have informed her again about taking a holiday in August and that I am flexible with dates.She also said they are planning to take holiday in July or August.

When we talked about it again,she said oh my work won't give me a leave in August so I have booked the ones in September.

I said I was planning to go for 2 weeks and we are driving there,so she asked me that it would be too much for her mum to look after the boy two weeks in row.

I said ok I will only take a week but will still have one more week left and she will have to pay me her September holidays as it wasn't my choice and since my husband works in education,we can't go anywhere then.

She sent me e-mail last night that I have already taken 13 days of leave and it is more than we agreed(we agreed 12) and she can't agree to that and saying she was flexible bla bla bla.
From 13 days 6 were unpaid and 5 days their choice and one day when I had my 30th Birthday was my choice and 7 others were unpaid.

So effectively I have 6 days left and I can't take it according to her just on her terms.

I do feel so upset about it,as i have been so flexible,gave her so much notice in advance,whereas she has not given me any notice,planned her holidays as she wished and didn't discuss with me and took it from my leave.
If I have known about Easter holidays,would have planned it differently etc.

I am considering leaving this job.

But just want to see you nannys and mums what do you think.Am I being unreasonable?

Sounds like she was a bit wishy washy and you accepted it. There's your problem (and hers).

As you say live andlearn. Next time you will know not to accept such vague wording in a contract.

I too am confused as to how many days you have written into contract (even though you are entitled to min. 16.8 PAID regardless- including bank hols). You said you agreed 12 plus/excluding ?how many? bank holidays??
You also said you have taken 13 but have 6 left (is that 19 days holiday?)- not sure I understand.
You said so far 7 were unpaid. If you meant 6 were paid (5 their choice and 1 yours) then I understand that you would need 6 more to add up to 12 (5 your choice and 1 theirs?). Does this holiday taken include any bank holidays? Bit confused- think you need to clarify the numbers for us?

Perhaps your employer didn't think you would be sharing holidays but that she could just choose all. This should have been settled at start and in contract- is it?

It does seem from what you say that employer is not quite understanding that she might sometimes need to take her paid leave to cover yours- what alternative would she have thought would happen?

I think perhaps I would not have just agreed to take the holidays unpaid though, especially Christmas as see this as quite a reasonable request very far in advance (as well as in contract from start). I would have said 'when would be better for you given that we agreed xmas/over summer?'. or 'I really would like two weeks together, given that we agreed summer/xmas, when would be a better time during summer to do this using my choice of holidays?'

Just because you are doing something you think is flexible doesn't mean they have to be. If she needed you to work but let you have time off anyway she probably thinks she is being flexible.

However, yes communication is key. Have your chat and if you feel it necessary summarise afterwards in an email to her what you understood was discussed and agreed. Or at least write it down for yourself.
Did you actually ask for holiday at christmas or just say you are taking it. As this can have diff. feel/reaction for employer

Hi Oliho,

Sorry for the confusion,yes
13 taken 6(5 their choice+1 mine) paid,7 unpaid
I have 12 days holidays+bank holidays.

As you said,she probably thinks she was flexible given,she had to take some leave(according to her).Although,her mum looked after her son those days.

Looking back,I should have insisted on be paid over Xmas.I didn't want to be seen as unreasonable and so on.

Before I started,I first time talked to her about it in September last year,when I had an interview.She said she no problem with it.Then we put down the clause in contract regards holidays.She did mention we have to both agree on taking them and if it doesn't suit then I either take it as unpaid,or she will pay for the holidays.
That's why I feel that I have been taken advantage of.she said it doesn't suit them and didn't pay me twice,yet holidays they take I am supposed to take it from my leave.Hence,I feel that I should be paid for the holidays they take in September and have 3 remaining days.(I am taking 3 days in August).

Any advice,if she refuses and doen't see my point of view?
Do people resign over this?And how it would be seen with future employers?
I am not sure what to do,if she doesn't agree.Which might be a scenario.

Curiousjuli - why don't you post the clause either here or on the employment board and get views on this? If you don't want to do this publicly then I'd recommend giving ACAS a call. They are usually very helpful. From what you are writing it would appear that in your view the employer/employee relationship has pretty much been killed by your feeling that you're being treated unfairly.

From the details you've given above it looks like your employer only has 1 more day she can exercise this right over so the question is whether you feel it is worth taking a stand now or just waiting and seeing. If your concern is that all your holiday is being denied then you have to discuss the reasonableness of this.

People resign over anything they are unhappy with.

Would I employ someone who had resigned over an issue like this? I'd probably investigate the reason for the resignation thoroughly both at interview and reference checking but if I thought you were good I'd just make sure we were completely clear on this issue before we commenced employment. As said IMO employers have to take into account what to do when staff have holidays however small they are and have cover solutions to hand.

I am not clear on whether the contract explicitly states that you have a right to choose half of the holiday dates, and if there is a notice period required for these dates. If your contract says nothing on this matter, than your employer is well within her right s to choose all of your holiday. I appreciate this is not common practice. But, if you did not negotiate choosing half and putting it in the contract, you haven't a leg to stand on.

CuriousJuli, I think she won't keep you long at this rate. Respect from both parties is required. I don't think you have been unreasonable by asking well in advance for holidays, especially when they were agreed.

Thank you girls.
Strix:I will find a contract and post it here.I am pretty sure it wasn't said 50/50,but it was said that we both have to agree.This is however,going into strange place,so she can disagree with my holidays every time then?and if i disagree?It is there for both sides,not only hers.
She has never referred to contract anyway,and I am pretty sure she doesn't know the exact wording.

UPDATE on situation
So here is what happened so far.We were supposed to meet today,review of her son plus discussing the issues regards holidays.She texted me yesterday that she has got to sort out some things today,so can't make it.

I responded that this is fine but since I am working next week Mon-Wed(and she doesn't want to discuss it either in the morning or in the evening)and have holiday next week,I texted her that I will send her e-mail.

I didn't bring any issues that I had with this year holidays,I just said that I think we should both learn from these mistakes and for the future references give each other 6-8 weeks notice and be fair on 50%/50% choice of holidays for both of us.Also mentioned that taking unpaid holidays is bit confusing and it only made matters worse.

Her reply was:yes we should do review soon,but "she doesn't agree with me regards my suggestion at all,since she might not have enough leave to cover my choice and her hubby is self-employed" and we can talk about it in person during review.

WTF????

Ok considering now to resign.I don't trust her though,what if she doesn't pay until my notice coz she will be bitter.

Not that I want to get another employer into difficulties, but if you ignore the contract and an employee's rights then you deserve to be taken to an employment tribunal. To put it simply, if she is in breach of the contract (I don't know if she is without seeing the exact wording of the clause) then you can sue her and enforce judgment in the usual manner. If your employer has any form of nannypayroll service they may have a legal part to advise her and based on what you're saying it doesn't sound like she has a contractual argument. Her reasoning is what she should have taken in when she agreed the terms of the contract. If she can't keep it now that is her problem not yours.

Curiousjuli - I'd be nervous about putting anything into writing yet. If you can sort this out by a meeting it would be better as less likely to be misconstrued. If she refuses to meet with you then I strongly suggest you call ACAS and get their advice on how to handle the situation. I find them helpful as an employer for seeing the employee's point of view and reassuring me that I am doing the right thing. Make sure if you do put anything in writing to have someone review it for you independently to ensure it cannot be misconstrued against you.

Thanx tiggersreturn.All very helpful tips.I am free to resign without any legal implications,i don't have to explain why(although am I sure she will know).For me this gone too far and she is being unreasonable.The e-mail she has sent me is frankly just too much.She is not being open to any suggestions at all.

If you are not in a fixed term contract and you work out your notice there should be no impediment to resigning.

No fixed contract.I will give 4 weeks notice in person.

I hope you are going to put that notice in writing.

yes - handing over notice in writing in person is a good way to do it.

Op - just curious, but do you think half holidays at your choice means you can take them whenever you want? Because that's not necessarily the case! Even if you get to choose half the holidays, there will always be times when your employer will say no, sorry, you can't have the holidays then because of X/Y/Z.

I agree that they should TRY to accommodate you as best as they can, but there is no obligation on them to HAVE to let you have holidays on the days you would prefer.

Chitchat - where an employer has already ringfenced half the holidays in question then I think they'd have to go a bit further to prove just why it is so impossible for an employee to take holiday as requested when appropriate notice is served in a timely fashion.

The problem with the situation as described by the OP is that the employer seems to have one standard for notice for her own holiday and another for her employee's. Also it is not the employee's business what cover is put in place for her holiday. That is for the employer to arrange and is part of the responsibility of being an employer. If the employer had put her dc in nursery/cm would she be forbidding them to close at the point of year they always do for their holidays because it isn't convenient? Whatever form of childcare you use unless you have some type of back up cover you're always going to have to deal with this type of situation as a parent.

Oh I'm not saying that the employer was correct at all, but I just noticed that the OP said she had 'mentioned' to the employer she was taking time off, and it didn't seem that those dates were checked at all. Others clearly were, because they were 'requested'.

When I was studying part time our nanny knew that there would be no way she could have time off over my exam period, regardless of it being her choice or not. But then she had PLENTY of notice of that and it was never a surprise to her.

OP - in future you might also want it clearly put in that the employer must give a certain amount of notice of their chosen holidays. We made it clear in our contract that we would give as much notice as possible with a minimum of a month's notice if we would be away and those dates were to be considered the employee's holidays (our chosen half). Otherwise the holidays are a bit pointless and useless if the employee couldn't use them.

I think there is plenty of blame to go around here. And a lack of communication on both parts is at the crux of it. OP seems to think she has a right to choose half of the holidays, but has offered no contractual evidence of this right. Employer sounds as if she has been just plain rude about not working with reasonable requests from employee. Communication still seems to be at a minimum.

At this point, I think OP is doing the right thing in resigning. I think the relationship has broken down and it is beyond repair. I just hope OP has learned a few things about open communication and contratual rights. Im not sure she has, to be honest. But, neither do I think this istuation is all of her own making.

So, good luck, OP. I hope you find a new job where all of these things are worked out and written down in a contract which you and your employer can reference for clarity evidence of your commitments.