Holiday pay dilemma

[Rebecca41]

Can anyone advise me what is the norm here?

My nanny has been working for me since January, 2 days a week. Her contract states that she gets 12 days (ie 6 weeks) holiday per year.

She is taking most of her holiday when I also have holiday, but there are a couple of weeks she's taking when I'm at work, so I'm making different childcare arrangements on those days.

I actually get 8 weeks holiday per year. So, with my extra holiday, and the times she's off but I'm not, there are going to be quite a few days when she's available to work but I don't need her.

Should I pay her for those days? Or should I just pay her for 12 days holiday, and any further days off after that are unpaid? Or is that really mean?

Obviously I'll discuss this with her, but I wanted to get an idea of what other people thought too.

thanks

I've always paid my nannies under those circumstances. I know some people get them to come in during those extra paid holidays and clean toys, sort out clothing etc, which I think is reasonable (although I haven't done that).

I think you have to pay her. We alwayas paid our nanny. But you might also want to give her some jobs (child related) that need doing. If she comes in and goes early it is still a benefit to her

As a nanny I expect to be paid - I am available for work and don't see why just because my employer gets 4 weeks extra holiday that means I loose my monthly salary.

Think about it this way - if your boss was to come into you and say - We're closing all of August so we don't need you, and therefore won't be paying you. What would you think? Would your bank be happy to hear you wouldn't be able to pay your mortgage that month, would your family be happy to hear they wouldn't be having fresh groceries bought in?

Really? So even though her contract says 12 days holiday, I will have to pay her for 20 days? (ie the 12 days we overlap holidays, the 4 days she has but I don't, plus the 4 days I have but she doesn't)

I wouldn't want her to come in to clean because cleaning etc isn't in her contract at all. I have a child-care only rule, I don't expect my nanny to do any housework other than clearing away toys that have been used that day.

If she's available but you don't need her she should be paid.

I'd have thought you'd probably need a couple of days childcare when not working in a year so it's entirely feasible that she might work, albeit a shorter day perhaps, to allow you to see friends, go shopping etc.

It often does work out this way as when nanny chooses holiday parents don't automatically take that time off so they end up with days where they aren't working and feel they don't need nanny, unless of course nanny ends up travelling with the family on holiday which means the parents aren't working but nanny is.

In my last position my boss got 8 weeks holiday a year - I got 5. I was supposed to take my holiday when she was on holiday - set times but on one occassion took 9 working days whilst she was at work - she paid me holiday pay and also paid for alternative childcare.

When she was on holidays I either - worked a lesser day 7.30-3 instead of 7.30-5.30, or if they went away was paid for my time but had the time off.

My boss saw it as 1) It was a good way of keeping the nanny happy ;) 2) that I was still contracted to work just I wasn't needed 3) That I would still have the same bills to pay 4) It was a bit of give and take.

TBH I thought you were talikg about 4 weeks not 4 days - Think you're being tight if you're quibbling over 4 days!

There's another complicating factor too!

Although I only employ my nanny for 2 days a week, I actually work 3 days a week, and my parents cover the other day. My Mum is needing some surgery this summer, so will be unable to look after the children for quite a few weeks. My nanny is therefore going to be doing some extra days for me. She actually asked for the extra work, as she doesn't have another job. I didn't put any pressure on her.

So, would it be reasonable to count those extra days as lieu days for the extra holiday days, if you see what I mean? So, rather than paying her for 20 days holiday plus extra additonal work days, I paid her for 12 days holiday plus additional work days? That way she wouldn't be out of pocket, because she's actually getting more days work than her contract originally stated.

Sorry if I sound really tight, but I'm a single parent and my mother's surgery has come as a shock, and it's all going to cost me an extra £130/week!

Grabaspoon, my work days are 13 hours long, so it's a lot of money!

Are you able to take some of your holiday on the days your mum would normally be doing your childcare or take some more of you leave when she is away?

If you have a good relationship with your nanny then why not sit down with her and work it out together explaining the position you are in and aiming towards some kind of compromise. She should be paid for any day she is contracted to work and is available to do so but there may be some arrangements you can sort between you.

You have to pay her even if you don't technically need her because you are on. That's just the way it goes with nannies.

If she has another job I would guess it would be difficult to work the extra days? Also, you might want to bear in mind that her agreeing to something which is frankly a little unorthodox, as nanny-employer arrangements go, may mean she feels free to ask for the same flexibility from you.

sorry - "on holiday."

I am a mum and a nanny employer too.

What does your nanny's contract say?

If she is contracte to work on certain days, but you don't need her on those days, then she should be paid for them. If you can agree with her that she works certain other days in lieu of those days, then that's fine and dandy, because you hsve agreed a variation.

Why not have a day or two to yourself with your holiday days, whilst your nanny looks after your child? Thats what I have started to do. Our nanny works Monday to Wednesday. I am on holiday next week, and I will do the garden when she works on Tuuesday, and I will give her Wednesday off and pay her.

I think you're right MumInBeds - I'll need to talk to her. I can't necessarily take time off when my Mum is off as where I work only one of us can be away at any given time.

It's tricky. I don't want to be unfair to her but equally I'm not made of money, and all the extra days with holiday pay too is going to cost me a fortune.

Of course you pay her.
You can't make someone take unpaid holiday just because you don't have work for them. She will be budgeting on the basis that she is being paid all year around, either working or having paid holiday. How is she supposed to pay her bills on weeks that you don't pay her?

I would suggest revising her contract so that her amount of holiday matches your own.

Yes Sarky, but wouldn't that then mean that she would have to take all her holiday at the exact same time as me? And is that a reasonable thing to ask?

Some nanny employers do restrict nanny holiday to when they can take holiday. Personally I'd say that was fine as long as she can request when she has some holiday and you take yours to fit around her (probably only 2 weeks at most).

She can't just inform you that she's taking time off, you need to agree and you'd be well within your rights to say it's not convenient.

As far as the extra days she'll be working goes what arrangement have you made already? If you've agreed to pay her then you need to honour that but otherwise you can propose a TOIL arrangement which benefits you both.

You have to negotiate on this one.

You can agree to any pattern of holiday/payment as long as both of you are happy with it. What you can't do is suddenly change the rules when you realise it will cost more than you'd realised.

You might, for example, want to offer her 6 weeks paid holiday (at times that you specify) and an additional 2 weeks unpaid to be taken whenever she chooses. Then for those extra weeks you would have to work around her. It really depends what is more important to you - the extra money, or the guarantee that she will always be available. Likewise it depends on her financial situation whether she would agree to having any unpaid holiday. She may prefer to keep things as they are.

At the moment you are effectively paying a premium (the two weeks that you don't need) for the fact that she is always available to work.

Surely the money is the same each month so even if you are taking holiday then you're not loosing out on an additional expense as you will have budgetted the cost of the nanny.

Sorry just realised, that she doesn't currently have to take her holidays when you do. So the last bit of my post makes no sense.

Given your current contract/arrangement I'm afraid it would be unreasonable not to pay her. She is your employee. You can't just choose not to pay her because you don't need her.

However... as money doesn't grow on trees in your house (and it doesn't in my house either so I sympathise) why have you given her the freedom to choose some of her own holiday?

My holiday is coordinated with my nanny's/au pair's and agreed at the beginning of the contract so that she takes holiday when I take holiday (and vice versa).

You can ask her very nicely if she fancies swapping some days. But since she volunteered to do the days because she needs the money that is unlikely to work out for you.

You don't have to authorise holiday requests. You have done so, on days when you are working, so I would wonder why you have granted those requests. Whilst your nanny can have 12 days off, paid. You as the employer can dictate when those are, if necessary. It is reasonable for you to dictate all holiday - though in reality you may let your employee decide some of the date, if you are able to be flexible with regard to covering the dates yourself.

You have already discussed with your nanny about her working extra days whilst your mum is needing surgery. So your nanny is expecting those days as extra pay and I presume that is what you have agreed at this point. It would therefore be unreasonable to not pay those days. However, you could ask your nanny if they would be able to do it on the basis of having that extra time being taken as extra holiday later on - so increasing the amount of paid holiday. Thus then allowing you to dictate when that time is taken, to fit with the time that you are away. Your nanny however does not need to agree to this, as it is not what you originally agreed with regard to working these extra days.

Nannies in my view are paid an annual salary for the job they do. That pay is split up into Monthly/Weekly payments and may even be written in a contract as a per-hour figure. In my view you should look at the cost of employing a nanny over a 1 year period... so over the year they get x amount of salary for working y amount of hours, which includes pay for statutory holiday entitlement.

I am a nanny employer and have also balked at the extra cost of this, but can't see another fair option but paying the nanny all year round. As others have said, how would you feel if your employer turned around and said I won't need you this week so we won't be paying you? It's not like she has an alternative source of income. Whenever thinking about employment issues with my nanny I try to ask myself, what would I expect from my employers and am I giving her an equivalent level of respect? Presumably you are paid for all of your A/L so it's not like you are being made to take unpaid leave and then having to pay your nanny. I think this is just one of the extra costs of having a nanny rather than other childcare (although actually now I think about it many childminders and maybe nurseries too would also charge you to keep the place open when you were on A/L). Flexible childcare would be amazing for parents but isn't so great for those providing it who also have to make a living.

I also think it's a bit dodgy to try to get her to work the extra days without paying her more - what's the incentive for her? She doesn't need to agree to work those days and if she's not going to get any more pay then she might be better off looking for another job in those days.

I've often had some sort of restriction in my contract in choosing holiday days- in school hols only but I could choose 100% of my hols when working for a teacher, I could choose some but others were alocated in line with UK bank hols when I was working abroad (boss was employed by UK employer so had our bank holidays not Belgium ones), one family prefered that if I wanted odd days off rather than a full week it would be a fri or mon so GPs could take over etc. Having restrictions is just a part of nannying in my view, so speaking to your nanny and working out the problem then perhaps renegociating the contract is the best idea.

Treat her as you would like to be treated by your employer. I'm not convinced that we're talking fortunes here.