bank holidays and nannies pay - is this fair ?

[istilllovelassie]

Can some nannies/nanny employers out there give me some thoughts on to whether this is fair or not ....

We employ a one day a week nanny on Fridays to look after our one child. The job only started three weeks ago, and we have been clear that it is likely to only be until July. At the nanny's, and our agreement, we are paying cash in hand. (A fair rate of £11 per hour) The nanny works a four day week Monday to Thursday somewhere else. She has over the years occasionally taken Friday jobs as well but does not always do so. Our job was always on a very casual basis. She has told me today that she is expecting to be paid but NOT work on the two upcoming Friday bank holidays. She is also (although she did state this in advance) taking two weeks leave straight afterwards so basically i will be paying her four days pay for which she will be doing nothing ! I understand about the holiday pay , and realise we should have discussed this with her in the beginning. However being paid to NOT work bank holidays on a cash in hand job just seems a bit of a rip off ... or am i being a mean old employer ?

i assume that cash in hand thing is legit because you are paying her less than £105 per week (or whatever the ceiling is above which you need to be her employer and pay her income tax and NI)?

the way it works for my nanny is that she doesn't actually work a friday (she is employed mon - thurs only) so for the BHs which fall on a fri she gets pro-rata entitlement - ie she would get 4 / 5 of a day of at another point.

i guess that your nanny is entitled to the day off (paid) though. do you have a contract of employment?

Well everyone else will probbaly disagree but I think its not fair.

Yanbu. How about you Pro rata it - full time is 28 days paid holiday pa. You offer one fifth of this, pro rata for the no of weeks shes's actually in your employ.

On the face of it this seems harsh for you....but do you have a contract and does it address bank holidays? If not then you are pretty much at her mercy, you shouldn't be employing her without one and she doesn't really have anythng to lose by annoying you when she knows you are only keeping her on until July. Any give and take that may have been there in a long term arrangement is probably not figuring in her approach. Fwiw often bank holidays are included in total holiday entitlement so in the absence of a contract you could use this as an argument if you decide it's worth raising...

You are both breaking the law I am afraid - you are her employer and you must register as an employer with HMRC and operate PAYE on her salary.

As she has an other job which takes her over the tax & National insuarance threshold then you can;t pay her cashin hand. You should be operating PAYE and deducting tax at basic rate (assumuing she uses her allowance at her other job.

Assuming you are employing her for 4 months (March - July) then she is entitled to 1.87 days holiday paid (you obviously need to work it out with your exact dates.

However some employers say that you have to accrue your holiday forst so if she has only worked for you for 3 weeks then you could reasonably say she hasn't accrued any yet she has only accrued 0.3621 days holiday (12.07% of weeks worked)

Paying for 2 of the 4 days seems a reasonable compromise. That would appear to be her holiday entitlement, if you were doing things legally.

No definitely don't pay her for any of them. If she's working for you for 14 weeks, she's entitled to 1.5 days holiday during this time. However, she will only accrue them at a rate of 0.1 days holiday per day she works for you. But its complicated by the fact that she's not here for the next 4 weeks.

TBH she sounds a bit cheeky anyway, if you do pay her for any of them make sure its not til she's come back from holiday since you've no contract there's nothing to stop her not coming back.

The other reason I wouldn't pay for holidays is you could currently argue if HMRC chased you that she was acting in a self employed as an ad hoc childcarer (as maternity nurses are allowed to be self employed). Self employed individuals don't get paid holidays as a rule.

If it was me, I would tell her that you've employed her on an ad hoc basis you weren't factoring paid holidays into the equation, but as a compromise as you will pay her for one of the days.
If she's not happy, I would just find someone else. Nannies on a friday are fairly easy to find.

Incidentally, I employ a friday nanny and have always done things properly with payroll and contracts, I'm not sure I'd do it just for 3 months though. With the hassle of the nanny having to slplit her tax code for 3 months and annoying the other family she works for.

you need to be an employer, BUT if temp (< 6 months) nanny can be self employed. (as mat nurses legally can be, so long as they dont work for more than 6m with 1 family) so you might not have to be an employer and its up to her to declare it in those instances.

If SE you do not normally get paid holiday.

If you want to be really kind and give her some paid holiday as if she were employed then 26 March - 29 July = 20 weeks

she would be (if employed) entitled to 5.6 weeks for 52 weeks work
For 20 weeks work its 2.15 days (which cant be rounded down to 2 days, IF you had to pay it)

(If going to end of term (23 July) it could be 19 weeks then 2.04 days (so still at least 2 days & and early finish!)

I think as she is SE it would be reasonable to pay her for 2 days, and whether these are bank hols, OR her 2 weeks holiday is up to you.

I think its a bit rude to assume that only working 4 /5 months that she is entitled to 4 weeks paid holiday tbh

you both decided cash (illegal) so therefore no paid holidays

i see no different then having a cleaner and paying then cash

if they dont go in they dont get paid

thanks everyone for some great informative answers - nannyl your calculations and explanations make it really clear .
with hindsight we should have agreed all this upfront and its a lesson for us.
I have told her i will pay her two days to cover her holiday and then just over half a day to compensate for the bank holidays as a gesture of good will.
Thanks all.