Why do people lie on profiles and CVs?! <rant alert>

[frakyouveryverymuch]

As if this finding-childcare business wasn't actually stressful and time consuming enough when you go through profiles when people add you as a favouriate and carefully eliminate people with too little experience blah, blah, blah (and I wish you could filter by age because a 16 year old patently doesn't have 5 years experience) or you look for qualifications, why do people have to lie? The good ones tell you what experience and qualifications they have in their little blurb but sometimes they don't so I've pursued this and asked for CVs from a couple of candidates who've contacted me without that info. I'm not expecting the moon btw, I'd just prefer someone with experience than without.

Half the time it's turned out that they just didn't read my ad properly and ticked all the boxes on the profile and at least the timewasters who send me helpful but truthful CVs are easily eliminated but I've just had one really shocking experience, with someone I thought was a great candidate - CV looked good, said all the right things in response to my e-mail questions, we had a promising phone conversation - and it all turns out to be completely fake right down to her CACHE PIN number!

I know I'm probably overly cautious but I checked her certificate number with CACHE, no trace, so I asked them to check her name, no trace. I called the college she supposedly obtained it at and she was a registered student there at the start of the dates she gave at least, so I asssume she dropped out. I checked the nursery where she said she'd worked (she'd given the address and had been gone 3 years so fair game IMO - don't disclose info you don't want people using) and nursery say they've never heard of her. I asked her for 2 childcare related referees and she gave me 2 families, 1 she's babysat for 3 times although they said lovely things about her, and a summer job. Nothing from the family she supposedly worked for over the last 2 years until they moved away. I'm left wondering what she's actually been doing!

Now I appreciate that it's difficult to keep in touch with families because they move and the nursery where I did my student placement years ago has closed down but her entire CV seems to be a work of fiction

And the disappointing thing is that if she hadn't lied I might have considered her just on the grounds of the experience she did have of babysitting and her general attitude :(

Oh poor you, there are alot of time wasters out there but once youve eliminated them youll have yourself a fabulous nanny! I dont think you can be too cautious when it comes to someone looking after your children!

The scary thing is that many agencies wouldn't have been this thorough for you. There is no substitute for doing this yourself. Did she have a forged certificate then? Is there ANY CHANCE that the nursery's personnel records are stored elsewhere? How long had the manager been there?

I have done references where professional bodies who should know better claim that someone isn't registered with them, causing chaos for the client. Then when we ask the question a different way they find them somehow.

what did you say to her?

I haven't seen a real copy of her certificate - I asked for a scan, she said her scanner was broken, so I asked for the info that I have on mine which I know is verifiable because I've checked myself (that sounds odder than I mean it to....). I'm happy to give her the benefit of the doubt on a typo on the PIN number, which is why I asked CACHE to check for her name but surely they'd have found something?

Good point about personnel files and how long the manager has been there. I was more than a tad flummoxed so didn't think to ask that. Will ring them back.

I've not said anything to her yet, I'm going to compose a calm and measured e-mail.

If I'd met her face to face I might not be being so thorough checking.

Okay, being more rational about this why would she give me a fake CACHE number? If I'm asking surely I'm planning to check?

I'm still worried how much is unverifiable though.

Never hesitate to check just because you met them face to face. Never. You have to be equally rigorous and not let emotions get in the way.

I shoudl know better and learned the hard way on this.

Intellectually I know that, and I spend far too much time on here telling people not to take things at face value. But then it comes to doing it and you do wonder whether you're being overly paranoid!

I can see the temptation if she'd produced a shiny, official looking certificate not to check it out....

Certificates are not worth much if they can't be checked, so someone telling you the certificate info surely knows it will be checked.

Can I ask, does CACHE charge to check certificates? No mention of a charge on the form so maybe they don't charge. They do ask for confirmation that the applicant has given permission for the check to be made, though someone giving you the details from the certificate is in effect saying that you can check it out.

Certificates change in appearance and people don't generally know what one looks like, so you can't tell if a paper document is real or fake. You go on gut instincts and verify with the issuer of the certificate if necessary.

It would be nice if job applicants provided all the information without making things up/lying. Alas some people will be creative with their application. Thus the need to verify things as best you can once you have narrowed down the applicants. It's good that you are bothering to check.

These days you also want to see their passport and check that with immigration if you feel anything is amiss. I don't tend to go abroad much but I've just had my passport renewed as I consider it to be a vital part of ID documentation.

Employers are under a duty to check ID and immigration status I believe, so how can that be done if someone does not have a passport. Thus I have one even though I don't intend to use it for travel.

They didn't mention charging. I just called them using their 'contact us' info though.

Thankfully they won't be able to get here if they don't have a passport that lets them through immigration. Although maybe I should make that a condition of the job offer once they arrive? How do I even check a passport from overseas?!

There is no mention of a charge on the form, so I guess they don't make a charge for that search - only for replacement certificates.

Alas people do get in without a passport, or with a fake one, or with a real one as a tourist (so not able to work). UKBA catch some of them, not all. Thus maybe that is why employers are supposed to check.

No idea how you go about checking but I expect the UKBA Sponsors and Employers helpline would be the appropriate starting point. See UKBA - Employers: Preventing Illegal Working (Employees starting Feb 2008 onwards)

I presume you know which countries they can come from to work in the UK without needing a visa (EEA, Youth Mobility Scheme, UK Ancestry. So that would limit down applicants from abroad.

Mumsnet Talk: What can be done about nanny exploitation - this message thread mentions a Nanny who doesn't have a visa to work in the country, yet they are in the country and working.

aww frakk :( 'looks about quickly and gives a very un mn like ((hug))'

course you have to check every possible nanny out - you would be a fool not to, and yes sure agencies would take face value, so listen to the alarm bells that are ringing as something just isnt quite right/true in this girls case

Nick I'm hurt you don't know who I am

I'm the one overseas, hiring a (probable) Brit, so they'll need a passport to get to me, unless they swim through shark infested seas which is possible but unlikely! And if they're British no problems with working but now I'm getting paranoid.

Immigration control is very tight here (lots of problems with people using false ID/pretending to be family members to get in from Mada) and I'd check their passport before they started work, but I can't do that before they land unless they join us while we're in the UK/on the mainland over the summer...

Try nannyjob :)

In your country (where are you?) passport control may be better than here in the UK, so if they don't meet the conditions for entry they may get turned back. So you will need to establish before they come, that they do meet the conditions for entry. With luck they won't lie to you about their nationality.
Though if other things are wrong on their cv, so could their nationality.

I'm in France but not, without being too specific. And really if that doesn't tell you who I am despite the approximately-3-monthly namechange I haven't been posting enough lately! Not that French passport control is by any means perfect but you're stopped and checked even if you've just taken a 'domestic' flight and they do scrutinise you quite thoroughly.

British/Irish (any EU but I want an EMT nanny) is fine. Anyone else I'd be interested in needs the equivalent of a tier 5 (the old working holidaymaker scheme) but getting that isn't a problem. I'm just freaking now about how I know they're genuine about their nationality now without seeing them. And I can see why overseas families do use agencies. It honestly never occurred to me that people would go to huge lengths to fabricate things or lie about their nationality.

Am using NJ, it worked well for me when I was working but again a lot of candidates just seem to tick every box so it's a bit frustrating going through profiles...

I so wanted this vaguely sorted before baby arrived!

Frannikin?

Photo of the page in their passport - then that will give you full-name, dob, nationality, photo of them. With luck it will be a genuine passport and not a fake.

If when doing your checks things are not looking right, then can you trust them? They may not be able to scan documents but I expect most will have a phone which takes a photo, so they could take a photo of documents and send you that.

haven't used that name for ages! But yes, making the transition from nanny to employer, and would love to get back to civilisation so I can shift to NWOC...

Photo/scan of passport page is a good idea. Must ask other candidates for that too Come to think of it I've always shown my passport and driving license at interview or sent a scan so not sure why I'm not expecting this from them.

What else am I forgetting, oh wise ones?!

Does French immigration need them to have anything specific to work in the country? Do candiates know about how taxation will work, healthcare, bank account, that sort of thing.

Is it clear as to who is paying for travel and how many trips would be paid in a year if you are paying their travel costs.

I have a blurb with covers healthcare, what we pay for and options for them to top up, how we'll help set up a bank acc and admin etc. Basically everything I think I would want to know (and usually didn't think to ask!).

Immigration-wise I hope I've been making it clear that they need a valid EU passport for the length of their stay (or appropriate documentation) otherwise they'll be turned away and we won't be able to do anything. No passport renewal possibilities here, the nearest consulate is Mauritius - and they're about as much use as a chocolate teapot - and I'm not paying a flight somewhere just so they can renew their passport.

Frak
I need you (and whoever else fancies it) to tell me how irrational I'm being.

Organised to skype with another candidate who made something of a song and dance initally about how difficult it was going to be to set up as she has a desktop computer. Finally tells the agency, yes I can do it. We arrange the call. Full on black screen at her end. "I don't have a webcam." So, we (including my children who had been looking fwd to 'meeting' her) had to sit there yakking into nothing-ness while she scoped us out. When we said: Isn't this a shame we can't see you. "I am happy I can see you." Then she has no questions for us - and I would say was quite reserved on the call - but grilled our current AP -we also had made sure she was there to answer any questions ("Are they REALLY okay" "What's the house like?"). Apparently she told the agency she now has a webcam and wants to skype again.

I was really put out that she didn't just say, sorry I still don't have a webcam yet, but no apology or anything. This wouldn't have been a problem no would waiting until she could organise it. OBviously the purpose of the call was to 'meet' her face to face and see how the rapport developed. Which she appreciated because SHE could see us, as she said.

I feel like somehow it's not working both ways, the disclosure process and am ready to just call it a day. DH thinks we should give it another go.

Do you think her behaviour is a bit weird or am I being too picky???

Also very persistent about seeing pictures our house, even though the AP has described the room etc. When it's looked like we're nearing an offer we tour the room via skype - for some reason I have this picture in my mind of her going: Well, I'd rather live in a Georgian townhouse than a victorian property. So no to you.

TBH I'm appreciating more and more then 'if this makes my hackles rise at all we're not going any further' POV. So you're not being irrational. You have a bad feeling...

2 things though:

1 - lack of forward planning = not attractive. If she doesn't have a webcam they're not expensive, or you can borrow one easily. Not doing that when you've set up a SKYPE rather than phone interview indicates to me she's not really thinking with her whole brain. Or if she is then nuff said.

2 - no questions for you. Okay I get asking the current AP about what you're really like etc but having no questions for you? At all? Hmmmmm.

The house...well....how much cleaning do you expect? Maybe she's worried it's going to be a huge job/you're all slatterns/she's had a bad experience with using the wrong chemicals on granite worktops (oh no, wait, that was my DSis and my DM wasn't happy!). Or maybe she is hankering after a Georgian townhouse. I think visualising/seeing pictures/having a tour is a nice thing to do though because some people need to 'see' themselves living somewhere. Personally I couldn't care less but I can understand why it would make a difference! Maybe she's just one of those people?

Thanks for the sense check.

We are really clear at the outset there is no general housekeeping in this role apart from keeping her own room clean and tidying up at the end of the day in the areas where the children have been. I do expect things like spaghetti spilled on the floor during the children's tea to be cleaned up and not to come home to a house in complete disarray with the children's stuff, but that's it.

The lack of forward planning is a good point but - and here's where it's may a bit irrational - it felt more like she just did enough so that she got what she needed from the call. There we were lining up the au pair to talk to her, keeping the kids up, etc. And she couldn't even be bothered to set up the webcam.

I guess I got the impression she either wasn't that keen on us for whatever reason or she wasn't that sure about the AP role. Neither of which was a great sign.

I guess the agency may be encouraging her to speak to everyone though - possibly not appreciating that all that achieves on some occasions is WASTING everyone's time.

"The lack of forward planning is a good point but - and here's where it's may a bit irrational - it felt more like she just did enough so that she got what she needed from the call. There we were lining up the au pair to talk to her, keeping the kids up, etc. And she couldn't even be bothered to set up the webcam.

I guess I got the impression she either wasn't that keen on us for whatever reason or she wasn't that sure about the AP role. Neither of which was a great sign."

I think you know your answer, really. Enthusiasm just counts for so much, as does a feeling that they're committed enough to at least do what's absolutely essential. She sounds a bit selfish really...

did you mention that for you skyping means skyping with a webcam? or something along the lines you want to see to 'face to face? for me personally skyping is just a way of very cheap/free way of making a call and have never used or thought of using a web cam. perhaps she could have similar views on this?
on the other hand, not asking at least a few questions sounds weird. the thing is, you can always try to find excuses why she didnt do something you expected her to do but in the end you need to get on without all these little annoying things.