Am I being too harsh with instant sack?? A bit long

[ducati]

We have had our nanny for about nine months, and I have witnessed a steady decline in performance. First less and less kids stuff done in house, less proper cooking, then more recently, and more worryingly, my dcs (9 and 7) appearing less happy with her, and nanny being increasingly kind of stressed and sharp with them.

Because I am really terrible at nipping things in bud, hate confrontation etc it took me weeks to summon up courage to have a "Look, this is what I need you to do, and I'm worried about this etc" conversation and I eventually decided I would do it this morning.

However yesterday evening my 9 yr old revealed that he had not been picked up at end of school as explicitly directed that morning by me several times (as he was a bit anxious about friend issues that morning and I didn't want him having to hang around in playground, being taken off to homework club etc). He ended up gg to homework club because she was 20-25 minutes late. Nanny didnt mentioned this to me or DH who was there in the evening and it slipped out casually from ds. Other things kids have said suggest they are no stranger to homework club until she gets there late. (she starts 1pm so she has plenty of time to get stuff done and get to school on time)

i felt this crossed a line and i have totally lost trust in her. she had no explanation when i asked what was going on and why she was late -- just "i don't really know what to say. I have no excuse".

For some reason, instead of feeling effing furious with her that my poor boy was left standing in the playground wondering where his nanny was (well i am feeling that too), I am feeling guilty and crap mother that i didnt address the lesser issues far earlier to give her a second change, because now I don't want to give her a second chance. DH far more hard line and thinks no question she's now totally blown it and wants her out. She isn't bad, just kind of vague and a bit lazy. am i being unreasonable???

No you are absolutely not!!! whatever the reason and/or background the minute you loose trust in the person who is looking after your children they have to go in my opinion. If something ever happened to them on 'her watch' you would never forgive yourself!

I would give her a written warning.

I'm afraid I am more hard line, trust gone, job gone! GOD I'm hard

Surly you have a contract? I would want well shot if I paid somebody to collect my child and they were 25 minutes late, but is it covered in the employment contract? If so, then get rid.

thank you for replies. i've been in such an emotional turmoil , no sleep etc i have not even thought of legalities. we have lengthy contract -- imagine most things covered.....will check.

i am so hopeless at nanny management. i so should have got to grips with things earlier. If you are like me, do take note and sort stuff out as soon as it happens

I was a nanny for 8 years and now have my own children so can advice from both points of view. Being late for your DS is totally out of order especially when there is no reasonable excuse for it. If I were in this situation I would arrange a meeting with her and yourself where you can sit down calmly and find out she still really wants to work for you. If so then you must be very clear with her what you will and will not tolerate. BUT if you have a gut feeling that things are not right then I would talk to her and say you feel the situation is not suitable for you anymore. There are better nannies out there. Your DS is deserves to be looked after by someone who cares about their job. Good luck.

I understand you must be FURIOUS with your nanny.

I think the issue is is this gross misconduct?
because unless she is guilt of gross misconduct you have to go down the verbal warning / written warning / dismissal route.

i have no idea wether its gross misconduct or not, but its not acceptable regardless.

Was failure to collect a child from school in the Gross Misconduct section of the contract? I expect not... therefore I would have thought that disciplinary procedure should have been followed, thus a written warning. If all trust is loss, then you could just terminate the contract with notice (thus paying for the notice period).

Based on what you have written, your nanny may be able to bring a claim for Wrongful Dismissal as the case I feel would hinge on if failure to collect a child from school on time would be considered to be Gross Misconduct or not. I feel your children were not significantly at danger as there was a homework club provision.

Yes, trust is gone. So you may well feel that you can no longer have this person care for your children. That therefore means the contract should be terminated but following the correct procedure for doing so, which I feel based on the information presented would mean paying in leiu of notice.

The question "What Is Gross Misconduct?" comes up time and again on here and I don't think there is a simple answer to it. My view is that you should write in the contract as detailed as possible reasons you feel would be considered to be Gross Misconduct so that an clearer picture can be seen as to what level of offence is Gross Misconduct, vs what is just misconduct.

YANBU!!!!

you put your trust in this nanny and she basically ignored and forgot your child

i would have a word with the teacher in charge of homework club to see how often your dc are going there

but yes i feel this would issue a SEVERE written warning and also talk about it

she has no excuse, what on earth was she doing to forget your 9yr?

Also, if you get to the bottom of what the nanny was actually doing instead of collecting your child then that may be a clear instance of gross misconduct (depending on what that is).

You don't have a leg to stand on with Gross Misconduct. Your children have been going to homework club on a regular basis, so it's not GM for her to have allowed this to happen, even though it was against your wishes for this one evening.

I don't even think you can give her a written warning for this as what she did (allowed them to be taken to homework club and picked them up from there) has been accepted by you, you just said you didn't want it to happen that evening because of friendship issues. It's not like she left them standing on the side of the road.

You do need to make a time to sit down with her and see if you can get to the bottom of the problem. Tell her that the children feel like she isn't as friendly and wonder why and that you have noticed her snapping at them etc. Try to be concerned about why she feels the way she seems to rather than just wanting a solution. It's much better to see if you can sort this out than go through the hassle and upset of getting a a new afterschool nanny.

Also, you need to sort this afterschool thing out - either it is or it isn't acceptable for them to go to the homework club and her to pick them up from there.

I think failure to collect a charge at the agreed and appropriate time would fall under Gross Misconduct in my contract, as it is basically neglect and disregard of my duties iyswim? Just because there is a homework club does not negate the fact the nanny was supposed to collect the children straight from school. It would be like me saying "Oh well, there's another prechool class right after my charge's playgroup, she can stay there and I'm going to spend another hour in Starbucks instead of going to collect her". Totally unreasonable IMO and totally a sackable offense.

I would issue her a written warning.Have they been at homework club frequently because you want them there or because she is late all the time?If its because she is late then I would deffinately give written warning after this incident
If its been because you want them there then maybe(apart from yesterday) she thinks its ok for them to go.If she has always done what you asked up til yesterday and you have wanted them at homework club I would give verbal warning.

One thing to note, as she has only been with you less than a year, you can get rid for any reason so long as it's not discriminatory (ie on gender, age, disability etc). I'm not saying it's fair or what you should do, but for less than a year, whether it is or isn't gross misconduct is not an issue.

If she has worked for yu for less than a year she can't claim unfair dismissal, so you can sack her. I would.

Agree with lobsters. It gets more difficult after a year.

Disagree with lobsters as the 1 year thing applies to Unfair Dismissal, not to Wrongful Dismissal. Unless of course anyone can point to information which says otherwise.

while you may be able to sack her (but i doubt it as she could probably argue not gross misconduct) im pretty sure if you just sack her you cant legally replace her for 3 months.

so make sure you sack her the right way (if shes that crap then im sure she will pretty soon have 2 warning and dismissal) and then of course you can replace without any repercussion

Unless there is something in our contract that says the full disciplinary procedures don't apply, then you can dismiss someone under a year with no reason give (you have to give or pay full notice). I'll have to find the reference, but I know it's true as it's happened to me and had all the follow up legal advice

www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/your_money/employment/dismissal.htm#Step_one_who_cannot_claim_unfair_dismiss

If you look at step 5 here, you can only claim unfair dismissal if your employer claims your conduct is poor if you have been there more than a year

you can dismiss someone under a year with no reason give (you have to give or pay full notice).

Yes, I agree. Currently I'm assuming that notice isn't being paid. Maybe I shouldn't assume that.

ducati - are you paying in lieu of notice?

I guess we were at cross purposes there nn, what I said is only true if you pay notice, which i assumed would be done, but you get rid on the day

Whether the cmS conduct was gross misconduct is irrelevant!

In the first year, an employee can be legally sacked for any reason and without any process.

The exception is discrimination, eg sex, disability, ("wrongful" dismissal) which doesn't seem relevant here.

Just as an extra thought it may be worth speaking to the teachers who run the homework club I would have thought that they have a record of attendance. Don't you usually have to book the homework club i'm surprised they haven't spoken to you if its been happening often, get the facts straight and written if need be as a record.

I'm sorry, but this is an enormous amount of fuss over a 9 year old going to a homework club that he often attends.

Yes ducati asked for him not to go that evening because he'd fallen out with a friend, but for goodness sake he has gone plenty of other times.

She didn't 'abandon' him - really a little perspective is called for.

Fair enough to be annoyed, fair enough to tell her you don't want them going anymore - but hardly a sackable offence FGS.

wrinklyraisin if there was that option at the nursery and you regularly did that then what is the problem?

chippin - i think its the fact op asked the nanny to pick up on time that day and not send to homework club that annoys her as the nanny didnt do as she asked iyswim

op - as i said before do you know how often they attend this club? are you charged for it?

that would piss me off if im paying a nanny to pick up yet also paying on top for homework club

my eldest charge sometimes goes to after school club, but thats if i cant pick her up as picking up other charge from different school 15mins away who has also had a club after school and both mb/db fine with that