Nanny problems - sorry, really long!

[MotherBoss]

Namechanged as I don't want the nanny to look up my other posts, but would like some advice. Will try to be brief (but know it's not!!! Important bit after CURRENT SITUATION) but don't want to get accused of dripfeeding. Am intending on showing this to nanny so feel free to tell me if you think I'm being unreasonable.

I have had a part time nanny working for me for the past year, am a SAHM but trying to study at the same time. 3 conditions were placed on her employment, that as soon as practicable nanny was to complete her NVQ3, obtain her driver's licence and passport so that we could do short family trips abroad with the nanny.

At this point NVQ3 is unfinished. Partly nanny's fault and partly her supervisor. Last week the nanny told me the last of her work had been emailed. A few days later she let it slip that she still had to do them. No driving lessons undertaken as yet - I would only fund some lessons if I she funded some of her own, no lessons to date! Passport application only lodged after many, many reminders. Passport office had a number of questions and everytime she received a query in writing, she only responded when they chased up with a phone call after the letter went unanswered. She has only just now received her passport.

I live in a slightly rural location, and the location of DS1's nursery requires a driver to take him for his morning sessions. Possible to do the trip by bus, but the 2 trips would mean DS2 spends almost 3 hours a day in a pushchair to do it. Nanny not brilliant at cooking, but has made some effort to cook from some recipe books which we both chose together. Her organisational skills are also lacking, she doesn't plan things properly and gets caught out with jobs undone, because of frequent last minute 'situations', although she is getting better.

She does do extra duties, willingly cleans the house and washes our clothing. But although a big clean done in the morning, I am often faced with mess at the end of the day because maintaining the tidiness is too difficult, so I still have to clean up anyway. After discussions about this she is better, but with the nanny share it has gone down hill again. TBH I would prefer she do her 'nursery' duties properly rather than spend the time tidying up areas where the children don't need to be.

Nanny has now said she is worth far more than her current salary due to her experience. I have pointed out that TO ME she is not worth that because of lack of licence and organisational skills etc. To get her a payrise I instigated a nanny share after first checking with her if she was ok with it. Nanny share has not gone well. The longer hours required by the other family are leaving nanny tired and stressed. My DS2 has also been fairly constantly ill for the last 2 months which I know doesn't make it easy.

I have had a few run ins with her during this last month, she has started to become a bit too 'bossy' towards me, telling me what she thinks the children need and arguing the point with me if I disagree. The run ins with her have left me feeling a bit angry towards her. I admit this may well be colouring my view about her behaviour at the moment.

Now due to employment for me happening a lot sooner than I expected I need childcare which doesn't require me being around to drive all the time. It has been agreed with all parties that other family will hire her for 4 days, and we will hire her for 1 and use a childminder on the other days that I need childcare. This will happen in the next few weeks. She does get a payrise, but not as much as she would have with the nannyshare.

CURRENT SITUATION - nanny has suddenly got ill. For the other family the timing is really terrible, but they are being as understanding as they can be, more than I am actually. Nanny had Friday off ill, which for me was terrible timing, and she had been due to look after the boys for me on Saturday for extra money. Both days I had to drag my two boys around with me all day for unalterable commitments which utterly exhausted them (couldn't find other sitter, husband away, no family living nearby). She didn't make an emergency appointment at the GP, I suspect she wasn't pushy enough with them. She didn't see the emergency GP on Saturday even though she was still very ill. So she made an emergency appointment by phone on Monday morning for the afternoon, KNOWING that she would have the children with her (and has to go there by train). DS2 also got ill again and required a GP appointment, different surgery, so I had to take him and she had to leave early to make her GP appointment.

She cannot understand why I am upset with her - these things happen, people get sick (my history with her is that she has had quite a bit of time off sick, she has used all her 5 days sick leave and most of her AL has been used up with sick leave, scattered here and there throughout the year). I believe that this much time off is too much for a professional nanny but she cannot see that this is an issue - people get sick and everyone has to deal with it.

GP told her she needed to take a few days off. Yesterday she thought it was reasonable to offer to me to work Tuesday and Wednesday and take Thursday and Friday off and give herself a 4 day break. If she doesn't take time off then she risks pneumonia. Fair enough. But... she has a concert she wants to go to on Tuesday, and if she is working on Tuesday she will go to the concert that evening as well. If she doesn't work Tuesday (today) then she won't go to the concert. I pointed out to her that her priorities were way out of line, if she thought that while being so ill that she couldn't even properly honour her work commitments she could go to a concert, exhaust herself further and we would be all understanding about it. The other family's MB has a deadline this week which could help her secure the employment she wants (if she doesn't meet deadline, she will lose the opportunity of this job). According to the nanny she is doing us a 'favour' by coming in when the GP told her she shouldn't and we should be grateful. The reality is that she has no sick leave or AL which she can take so can't afford to not work the whole week.

As it turns out nanny has the flu, and seeing the GP earlier wouldn't have helped her anyway, but at the time she thought she had tonsillitis so 'believing' that the GP could help her she still didn't go as soon as she could. The reality isn't affected by not seeing the GP earlier, but she can't see why I view her not seeing the GP as a sign that she is not being proactive enough.

I can't seem to get through to her that she is lacking in professionalism towards this incredibly important job. Can any of you help me???? (Or an I being an overbearing, pushy MB???!!!)

What do you mean she has no sick leave? I don't think you can legislate in the contract for sickness, can you? Do you mean paid sick leave? I suppose she'd be entitled to statutory sick pay at least?

Sounds to me like you need to make new childcare arrangements anyhow. You obviously don't really like her and feel she has an attitude problem. Whoever, if anyone, is being unreasonable here it is difficult to come back from the brink in this kind of circumstance. Why don't you go fulltime with the childminder if that's working well?

Sorry, no paid sick leave, nanny share only lasting just over a month so not a lot of built up paid leave (sick or annual) and she has taken her current accrued sick leave last Friday, so any other sick leave would be unpaid until statutory kicks in.

The problem is I DO like her, but as a person not as a nanny which is what has made this all so much harder.

Taking this in parts:

"3 conditions were placed on her employment, that as soon as practicable nanny was to complete her NVQ3, obtain her driver's licence and passport so that we could do short family trips abroad with the nanny."

Interesting that you specified these. Why? What was the penalty for not meeting these conditions?

I can understand driving license - that's reasonable. Very nice of you to fund lessons but even after she passes how confident are you going to be with a new driver ferrying your DC around?

Passport I'm slightly about as I don't feel you can require someone to apply for a passport, but that said if you made it clearly travel was part of the job then she should have been sending off the forms the following morning. At least she has it now but I can see how this reluctance and slackness is contributing to a negative picture overall. Also her attitude towards the questions seems a little off, although it's entirely possible that she genuinely didn't have the information/couldn't do anything about it.

Is the NVQ so you don't have to have the assessor hanging round or is it so she can get OFSTED registered? Or another reason? In any case she shouldn't really be dragging her heels - it doesn't show commitment and professionalism.

Have you talked to her about her organisation and helped her by providing ticklists? It can be quite labour intensive but IME managing timme effectively as a nanny is something which only comes with experience. Likewise the cleaning have you told her that nursery duties are a priority and she can 'slack off' on other parts of the house?

If nanny share isn't going well then terminate it. A month is long enough to find that out. All 3 parties need to be happy and you aren't, nor (probably) is nanny if she's tired and stressed. I don't kow what the logistics of it are re: hours/duties/expectations but quite often things that are feasible with one family need to slide with a share, although basics like tidying up after yourself are non-negotiable.

So far you've not been particularly unreasonable, although possibly slightly odd in your initial passport/NVQ requirements. In fact you've been very helpful to her in arranging a nanny share - not your fault it's not going well - when you wouldn't give her a payrise, which she probably isn't worth anyway given that she's not upheld her part of the bargain. Any chance of a bonus for completing the NVQ and then for passing driving test?

Bossiness is never on. They're your DC. Nannies should never argue with parents, although I will say I've respectfully disagreed with employers in the past and stated my reasons. When all is said and done though I'm paid to follow their wishes. Communicating effectively with parents is a huge part of a nanny's job and can be the distinction between a truly professional nanny and someone who just does the job.

When's your deadline for a driver? Can the CM be a temporary measure? What will happen with your DS1's nursery sessions?

To be honest I would make her redundant completely. Your job requirements have changed. You need a drivery, she isn't one through no fault of yours and she's had a year to meet those requirements.

Illness you can't predict and can't control. Many nannies will struggle in when on their deathbed to avoid letting their employers down and many employers will let them have an easy day because of that. I suggest in your next contract you have no entitlement to full sick pay, just SSP which doesn't kick in immediately and that they can only self-certify for 3 working days, after which they need a GP's note. Has her GP given an indication of when she'll be given a fit note? She should not be coming back to work before she is ready and 'planning' sick leave, unless you or the other family desperately need her on Tues/Weds isn't really practical.

Not making the appointment on Friday, when she was sick, or Saturday if there was appointments available when she was supposed to be working is pretty poor show and lacking in initiative IMO.

I have no idea what she thinks she's doing mentioning the concert to you! If she goes or not that's her call but I'd never even consider going to a concert but planning time off sick because I risk pneumonia if I don't rest! There is no 'favour' about it. If she is too sick to be working you shouldn't accept her working and she takes the time unpaid. Next time absolutely insist on a fit note, for your employer's liability insurance if nothing else.

She does come across as lacking in professionalism but I'd be interested to hear what she has to say for herself on the issue. From what you've said you're not coming across as unreasonable but equally there may be extenuating circumstances which you're unaware of.

Ah yes, that makes sense. Think if you don't like her as a nanny it's probably best to part company. It is hard when someone is nice but doesn't have the specific skills you need. However, I think if she isn't providing the kind of child care that meets your needs as a family it would be better for all concerned to make alternative arrangements. We are moving from our very good child-minder to nursery care partly for this sort of reason. We really need to be able to call the shots on leave etc in order to function alright as a family and when you are relying on one person for care that just isn't possible some of the time. As your nanny says, people get sick/have lives/etc etc!

TBH, I'm not sure why you employed her in the first place. You needed a driver, with a passport and a completed NVQ (it's not clear why this was a requirement but perhaps for OFSTED registration?). Anyway, you made your requirements clear and she has, for the most part, failed to fulfil them. The fact that she can't drive means you now have a completely different form of childcare to the one you presumably wished for. You have ended up in what you call a "nanny share" although it's actually not a share at all, it's two separate employers using the same nanny on different days. A true share would be both of you using her on the same days for all your children. You didn't set out to have a nanny share, or a childminder or be paying the amount that you are paying for not very satisfactory care.

What is the nanny's previous experience? What did her references say?

If you started the current arrangement only a month ago with a new contract, then I would terminate it now and use only the childminder. I am however unclear on whether her previous time with you will count for continuous service under the new arrangement and if you may therefore have to go through a formal disciplinary process before you can dismiss her. If you use a payroll service, they should be able to advise you.

My thought is that it is a crashingly bad idea to show this post to your nanny. If you need to have a performance management conversation with her then do that, don't try and manage her via an internet forum.

Thanks frakkinup

To answer some of your questions: (and these were originally in my post but it read like a damn novel, at least now it's just an essay!!!)

She was almost at the end of her NVQ3 and wanted pay to reflect that. We agreed a payrise upon completion of the NVQ3, so it was for her benefit primarily.

Driver's licence - because we knew that I would eventualy be going back to work and that we would require childcarer to have a driver's licence. Agree, that she may never have been a confident driver. She knew that if that were the case then she wouldn't be able to continue as our nanny in the long term.

Passport - because my husband travels a lot we wanted to occasionally go abroad as a family with him. That was made clear and agreed to by nanny right from the start. The trips wouldn't be 'long' trips, just to France or Italy etc for 3 or so days. (And we made clear we would happily pay overtime and/or give time off in lieu).

Passport questions - yes she did know what to do about it. She doesn't 'hide' things, is probably too open actually so I know what the issues were and what she needed to do to fix them. I knew when the letters arrived as they arrived at our house (she was live in at the beginning, later changed to live out - for her benefit not ours).

Organisation - yes and no. TBH I have fallen down in that area a bit, but I have provided what she has asked for to help her. Lack of organisation with household duties is partly my fault I will admit, and I have tried to give her lists etc as time went on. Lack of organisation with regard to children's timetables, getting meals ready on time, etc I feel are strictly her fault as I made my requirements abundantly clear.

She had to mention the concert to us because she needs to leave a little early to get there in time. So there is no way we would not know about it.

Because she lived in for about 8 months I know her and her family/life situation very well. She is a nice person, but lacking in professional boundaries (easily happens with a live in, I know). She also doesn't know how to say no to anyone else in her life and so gets exhausted too easily.

I am questioning whether these personality traits are compatable with being a professional nanny, but know that nursery work pays rubbish. She is wonderful with children, but being a nanny requires more than that and I'm trying to get her to see that.

annh - these were things we WOULD need, and because we thought she would make a wonderful nanny we were willing to give her the time to get them.

BlameItOnTheBogey - there is nothing here that I haven't already gone through with her already. I am making changes to meet my requirements. I think she seriously needs to give more consideration to these issues for her long term future, but she just doesn't see them as problems. I had hoped that other nannies views might help.

I will freely admit that I haven't handled things as well as I could have. But she refuses to do the same, or see that she may have to rethink her attitude towards things.

Being somewhat biased here, but I too, think you should use a childminder full time and give this nanny the heave-ho.

Do you have a notice period? If so, give her notice to put an end to the current situation. It sounds as if you are both fed-up with the current set-up and you both want out.

As annh states, why - if living in a 'slightly rurual location' that requires travelling around by car - did you employ someone who can not drive?

BTW, have you any idea of the costs of insuring an employee who has only just passed her driving test to use your car for nannying purposes (that is, business purposes)? If she is also a young driver (that is, under 25) it is very likely to be in the thousands of pounds!

I'm a bit at this. Your expectations seem quite high and the nannies seem quite low - and I can't see them meeting in the middle.

As someone else said, make her redundant and use the childminder.

It's all simple. She, as a nanny, does not meet your requirements. So get someone else.

At end of day only you can make the decision.

Reading it through it sounds as if she is (A) nice enough and (B) a bit teenager-y when it comes to life (as in being too ill to work, but not ill enough to skip concert). So yes, she is slightly lacking in professinalism, but knowing that doesn't really help you, does it?

I don't see any ill-intention on her part, just immaturity. You have to decide if you can live with that or not. If not then make her redundant and get a driving nanny. And if you do want to keep her then lay out some rules and move on.

Fair enough compromise on the NVQ and letting herself down if she doesn't complete it with the promise of a payrise!

TBH if travel with the family were needed I'd have wanted a passport right from the start and if she hadn't complied by the end of the probationary period, or if she hadn't had evidence that it wasn't her fault she hadn't complied that would've been it. But I can see why you were more relaxed and it was more of an optional extra.

The organisation thing is tough to apportion blame for. I would say organisational skills were fairly key for nannies and if you've tried to address them with her then do mention them in a verbal reference to make her next employer aware of how much handling she needs. That said it's something we all need to learn and usually by trial and error. I will freely admit that when I started nannying I was far from perfect (now I'm really close of course ) and yes, meals were late, things didn't get done at the end of the day. Most nannies are like that to start. Our first bosses must have been without exception very patient people! The difference is that good nannies learn and the others don't.

Having said that whenever a job changes it takes time anyone time to adapt - around a month for a new job and a fortnight for any substantial changes in schedule within a job seems average from anecdotal experience.

Another key part of being an excellent professional nanny you also touched on - knowing where the boundaries are. That means not oversharing with your bosses, whilst still having a friendly relationship with them, and being able to prioritise. Sounds like your nanny can't do either of those things. I don't see how someone who can't prioritise in their own life can be trusted to prioritise effectively professionally.

How do you feel she could be more professional? I don't think you're being unreasonable but I do wonder what your expectations are....

Incredibly unprofessional of you to show her this thread! Can't believe you'd ever think it's appropriate.

I'm also confused as to why you hired someone who doesn't drive and doesn't have a passport if you needed a driver who would travel with you.

I guess to me being a nanny is more of a profession, than just a job. I'm not sure she sees it as anything more than a job, much like working in Boots or in a dress shop.

She now knows it's too late for those things to make a difference with me now, but I feel she will need them for future employment. But she doesn't. I guess that's what I mean by professionalism.

I want something to get through to her before she looks for her next employment (which she will need to do in the next few months). As I said, I like her as a person and I wish her well. I wish it had worked out better here. I'm hoping that she can take something from here and move on. (I know I certainly will!)

Well does she want to nanny as a career or is it just a job?

When prospective nannies come on the nannyjob message boards many posters very openly say that not having a qualification/drivers license is a barrier to getting not just your first job but also subsequent jobs unless you're lucky enough to be in central London and even then people want the option of a nanny who drives.

Professional nannies care about their career and their next steps. Seems like yours hasn't really been doing much forward planning and when she comes to look for a job she's due a bit of a wake-up call.

Nannying is rarely, if ever, just a job.

I'm interested as to why you put in the three conditions, rather than look for someone who already met them.

Was it a time factor? Did you meet / speak to anyone who met these? Is there anyone you could get back in touch with?

Agree that it's difficult when you like the person but not the professional, if that makes sense. BUT if she doesn't fulfil your requirements then it doesn't seem viable to keep her on.

frakkinup - she says she does - but then acts as though she doesn't. That's the problem, when we have discussions, we have agreement, they all end well. But then the reality turns out quite differently.

Simple - she was at the nursery my DS1 was at. She babysat a few times, and was wonderful with the children. Our biggest mistake is that we thought that was the main criteria and the rest could be worked out later and so didn't interview anyone else for the position. My mistake, and not one I will repeat.

As I said before, I freely admit to making my share of mistakes which I have learned from. At the end of the day if she doesn't want to learn from them that is her problem, but I feel a certain amount of obligation to at least try to help her learn from her mistakes.

Maybe people are right and I shouldn't show her this thread, but she will often say 'X is a nanny and she only does abc, and gets paid Y'. I don't know other nannies or MBs, but I have been on Mumsnet many times and have asked questions under another name, taken the advice and acted on it. I just thought maybe she could learn from some of the more experienced people on this thread.

she cant do the job properly ie drive so get rid of

if she is too ill to go to work, she is too ill to go to a concert and that would have severely pissed me off knowing my employee was out when couldnt come to work

she has had a lot of sick days, was she really ill or things like a cold

find a driver/someone who is qual if need ofsted and a passport to travel

I personally don't see a problem with you showing her the thread and can see why you took her on now, pending the conditions - I was just curious, not trying to criticise AT ALL.

I think she misses the point rather. She is not x, you are not x's employer and she is not doing x's job. Nanny jobs are so individual, as are nannies, that there can be very little meaningful comparison between jobs, or candidates/employees.

For that reason threads like 'how much should I pay/be paid?' are guidelines at best and subject to all sorts of caveats. It's also for that reason that managing a nanny or being one is a delicate balance which needs to be worked out between the employer and employee and isn't a strict set of dos and don'ts beyond the letter of the law because what works for one family/nanny may bit work for the same family or nanny in a different pairing.

May not work. Silly autocorrect.

Frakkinup - I think I will print that out and stick it to her instruction book!!!! (Joke - sort of!)

Blondes - she really was sick, I do know that. But (and it is a big but!) this is where proactivity plays a part. She had what turned out to be a food intolerance. When the pain was manageable she missed a number of GP appointments which she had scheduled on days off. A few weeks later when the pain became unnbearable she suddenly had to take urgent time off work to see the GP.

Just one example, but there are a few such instances where if she had acted promptly her health wouldn't have suffered as much. In my opinion she doesn't take sufficiently good care of her health, and it has been the focus of a number of our discussions.

I believe it is a lot of time off sick. But because she has used annual leave for it she doesn't see it as a problem. But from my point of view annual leave should be something that a I have time to plan for and make alternative arrangements. If used for sick leave I will often only have short notice that morning, or if lucky the night before.