Please help with my nanny share questions!

[crabby]

My childminder just retired - aaarrrggghhh! I am thinking about a nanny share with a friend who lives up the road. I have a two year old and a six month old. She has a five year old (at school) and a nearly two year old.

My friend is already employing the lovely nanny three days/ week who I know to be nice and reliable. She pays £7.50 an hour (nanny has her own three year old two days a week and occasionally her eight year old too.)

My question is how much should we pay the nanny, how should we split the costs (with friend's daughter at school and my baby so young), what happens with tax etc with two employers? We both would want to pay with childcare vouchers...

Sorry so long, but I'm new to this whole nanny business!

if there are days when the nanny will have children from both family you split the cost but pay the nanny a bit extra on the other day you both pay the nanny the same hourly rate.

You need to work out who house she will be in who pays for food, nappies ect. Holidays. Is it one job or to this will make a difference if one of you needs to end the arrangement.

Both family's need to sit down and talk through everything they can think of. The nanny need to want this to happen she may have her own ideas as well.

She may not want to work full time.

If both families are flexible and all the children get on nanny shares can work really well.

You need to keep talking to each other don't let the children pass on messages

It may breach Childcare Act 2006 as there are children from 3 families involved. I say MAY as I am not aware of that part of the legislation having been tested in a tribunal/court.

Tax wise I think there is a saving on Employers NICs if you are both registered as employers separateley. MrAnchovy I think has written about that in the past - so search his posts.

OFSTED would consider that a breach of the childcare act, as nick points out, on the grounds that the nanny's children count as a family and then you have 2 more. So whilst it's never gone to court if she were to be OFSTED registered as she would need to be with childcare vouchers and then inspected there woukd be trouble.

Children

a-6m
b-1yrs
c-2yrs
d-3yrs
e-5yrs
f-8yrs

Im assuming poor nanny won't have all of the above children all at the same time....if so I would be concerned.

I really recommend speaking to someone like Nannypaye or Nannytax etc to see how they suggest splitting it. The tax and NI contributions are complicated to work out with a part-time multi-way split and there are Tax/NI benefits gained from being registered as 2 employers, but the Nanny will have to talk to her tax office to say she wants to split her tax allowance proportional to the number of hours each of you employ her.
We shared a nanny with another family, during term-time only and part of the day only. Basically we split the day into hour or half hour slots and divided costs according to how many children were present during those times. So mostly it was a 50:50 split when the nanny just had one child from each family but after school when 2 of my children were with her we covered 2/3rds of her hourly pay and the other family the other 3rd.

frak/nick - do either of you have any evidence that Ofsted will take that view, and if they do, on what basis?

The relevant law says nothing about a nanny's own children - see of the www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/14 Care Standards Act 2000 as revised.

From a National Insurance point of view, it is definately more efficient if there are two separate jobs, but if the chilren are mainly being cared for together HMRC may view it as one job. As others have said, probably best to get advice specific to your circumstances from a decent payroll agency - consider payefornannies as well as the others mentioned here. Personally I am not a fan of split tax codes as they introduce complications and don't save any money, but they can make it easier for the nanny to understand how much tax she is paying.

Again as others have said, sharing the nanny's pay is only one aspect, you also have to agree with the other family how to split food (for children and the nannny), any travel expenses (between your homes, to baby groups) etc.

Let's try that second paragraph again...

The relevant law says nothing about a nanny's own children - see s79A(4) of the Care Standards Act 2000 as revised.

I have a letter from OFSTED which says that 2 families can employ a nanny but that a nanny counts as a family in a share if she brings her own children on a permanent basis, so if the arrangement is negotiated on those terms I imagine that would count, which would make sense. Then it would be children from 3 separate families cared for simultaneously, which means nanny should register as a CM even if not working from her own home. That's partly why I'm of the view that a nanny with own child should be approached from the POV of setting up a share but with a slightly higher salary as nanny obviously doesn't get to split the tax burden on her own wages.

I think their interpretation is based on when it talks about P1 and P2 and different parents it means someone works for P1 and then also cares for children of different parents to P1, referred to as P2, meaning nanny is then P2.

It's a question which frequently comes up on a different website so I wrote and asked for clarification as some people said it would count, some said it wouldn't, we couldn't work out what happens if you occasionally had a child with you or if it was for under 2 hours a day etc. OFSTED's answer was basically they would apply the rules for childminding any time there were 3 families involved in an arrangement for simultaneous care. So extrapolating from that it's okay between 6pm and 2am, it's okay if all the children from one family are over 8 because they don't count for registration purposes, under 2 hours a day would be okay and fewer than (I think) 10 dats a year is okay.

However a share which involves 3 families but only 2 at ant one time is fine. The only limit is on care provided at the same time.

Those terms meaning the OP's.

Hmmm, I see where they are coming from. The drafting is terrible - if you apply Ofsted's interpretation to P1 and P2 it appears to say that a childminder with only one client (P1) is not a childminder, as long as she has a child of her own and so qualifies as P2! Also it doesn't say anywhere 'a child or children' so nannies can only look after one child at a time!

Who drafts this rubbish?

Sorry OP for the hijack, the practical implication of this is that if you do go ahead with this arrangement, and the nanny joins the Voluntary Register so you can both use vouchers, and if Ofsted ever come to inspect her, and if you decide to let them... it would probably be best if she does not have her own children with her that day, and is very careful about answering questions about her own family arrangements - you must tell the truth, but only a court can ask for the whole truth.

Ah BUT a CM is working from their own home and therefore subject to regulation because of that regardless of how many families are on the books....

Tis rubbish drafting, I agree, but you can see why they came to the conclusion they did. I feel it would always be a problem as, going by the experience of various nannies, OFSTED ask to see contacts, therefore to keep it quiet you wouldn't be able to mention anything about nanny's own child(ren) in the contract and that could cause other problems because it would be some kind of nebulous verbal agreement...

Well no, S79A is now the statutory definition of childminding so if you are not a childminder by virtue of a S79A(4) then you are not subject to regulation regardless of how many families are on the books (S79A also contains the exemptions for children 8 years and older, less than 2 hours per day and 6pm-2am).

It would be really interesting to know whether the NCMA responded to any consultation on this, if not, what are they for?

"may breach Childcare Act 2006" - Note I said MAY

There are no Care Standards Tribunal decisions (which I can find) which cover this subject area. Until there is a decision, then who really knows what the answer is - as while Ofsted may consider it a breach, it could be taken to tribunal and the tribunal could overrule Ofsted. Ofsted don't make the decisions, they only regulate. If someone disagrees with how Ofsted interpret the legislation, it can be taken to tribunal.

Care Standards Act 79A(4)

Where a person? (a) looks after a child for the parents ( ?P1?), or (b) in addition to that work, looks after another child for different parents ( ?P2?), and the work consists (in a case within paragraph (a)) of looking after the child wholly or mainly in P1?s home or (in a case within paragraph (b)) of looking after the children wholly or mainly in P1?s home or P2?s home or both, the work is not to be treated as child minding.

That's the part about it needing to be "wholly or mainly" in the home of the children whom the person is caring.

"if you are not a childminder by virtue of a S79A(4) then you are not subject to regulation regardless of how many families are on the books"
Yes, if the care does not fall under Childminding or any other form of regulated care, then it is not subject to regulation.
So someone can care for as many children as they like, as long as they are aged 8 years or older.

Interesting... Are OFSTED the ones with the right to request that people register (am not clear on that) because they say they would require a 3 family share to register?

The registration not required form would imply that CMs don't count as P1 or P2 because it mentions being directly related to the child (which they are as a parent) so their own child doesn't count when caring for an unrelated child not in the child's own home for reward. Then they talk about 3 sets of parents which covers the nwoc/3 sets of parents scenario and implies the nanny is one of them...

If it wasn't P1 and P2 and they went by children of different families in the Act it would be much clearer. Or if they actually specified the place on relation to the child that would help.

Are OFSTED the ones with the right to request that people register?
Yes, they can ask people to register and tell them about the appropriate legislation. If someone objects, they initially discuss it with Ofsted and then they can Appeal the decision made by Ofsted at the Care Standards Tribunal.

Ofsted is a Non-Ministerial Government Department which is run by a Civil Servant, not an elected Minister. So changes in politics do not affect the running of Ofsted very much, if at all. Things like EYFS are the responsibility of the Department of Education. I think the Childcare Act 2006 was created by a Government Committee, so a group of elected MPs.

Isn't Relation to the child mentioned? I sure it is mentioned in the exceptions, as there is a bit which says about Grandparents, Aunts, Uncles.

It does mention relations in the Act and also in OFSTED's interpretation. So by that logic a CM would never be P1 or P2, which means they're only looking at care of one child and that care is in the CMs home not the child's? But P1/2 is irrelevant when there are 3 families are involved?

I thought I understood how they got to their answer but now I'm not so sure....

I should be marking exam papers not tying my head in knots over this. Plenty of time for that when I stage my take-over of OFSTED.