Arghh - nanny holiday entitlement - when she wants more...

[JinxyCat]

Our lovely live-in nanny has 20 days (plus bank holidays) of holiday - and she wants to book more than that now (23 days).
I've said we're happy for her to take the leave, but she has to do one of the following:

• take it unpaid (I've said we can spread the reduction in pay if thats easier for her) OR
• work half days at weekends (1 a weekend) to get time in lieu OR
• not take the time off. Unfortunately, she doesn't seem happy and I'm at a bit of a loss to understand why. Both DH & I work full-time (him permie, me contract) so we are going to give up our holiday time (or my daily rate) so she can have extra time off - AND we're being flexible about how she can pay/be paid for it IYSWIM She did say she was unhappy about us making her take holiday one week later than she planned earlier this year (she's chosen 15 of her 20 planned days) - and didn't seem to expect that she would have to plan some of her holidays around our schedules (we are her first nanny family, and she's our first nanny). So my question here is, are we being reasonable here? So my question is this, am I being reasonable here?

Yes of course you are being reasonable.

In any job you have to work your holidyas around the convenience of your employer. In practice that means youput your request in and it gets approved or otherwise depending on who else is off or whether it is a busy time. For a nanny I beleive the done thing is for them to choose half and you to choose half.

IF any employee wants more time off than their holiday entitlement it is totallyat the discretion of the employer and of course it should be unpaid. Where I work we occasionally let them dip into next year's entitlment but for a new employee who has only recently started ...err no.

You have presented her with options, which would enable her to have the days off she desires. So I consider that to be very reasonable... you don't have to give her those options, you can just deny the annual leave request.

Has she never had any job before, even non nannying? Sounds like she may be new to work life... and just seems to think she can take as much time off as she likes. Bit of a wake up call... she can't. You are being nice and giving her some options - including one which enables her to work extra hours now, to earn the days off she wants - so no loss of earnings for her.

I think that you've been more than reasonable, both singly and collectively :)

I can't see what possible objection she should have to the extra leave being unpaid, as there is presumably a contract stipulating the number of paid leave days. She should be prepared to be a bit flexible about when she takes her leave, but actually that has nothing to do with the situation you have at the moment.

I think that there must be something else that she's not telling you.

20 days plus bhol is the legal minimum.Was the fact that she had limited choice clearly outlined in the contract? Did it say her holidays had to match yours etc etc? I think 20 days with one of those weeks directed is a bit on the low side but if that is what she signed up for then that's what she should expect.

Do you or your husband have more than 20 days off a year? Can you chose when to take holidays? These are the little things that can make a real difference when choosing an employer.

Do you always get home at the agreed time? Do you pay her for all additional minutes if you are late? Do you only expect her to baby sit at other times if it doesnt clash with her other plans etcetc?

There has to be some give and take in having a nanny especially live in.

Simbacat, do you really think "one of those weeks directed" is low? I have never heard of the norm being other than half each - nanny picks half, family pick half - and we've been in the nanny-employing world for 11 years now. So by norm, the nanny shouldn't be picking more than 10 days.

YADNBU the nanny is.

I've been a nanny and what you are suggesting is very fair.

How did you find her? If through an agency, give them a call and ask them to have a word with her.

Is it possible for her to accrue more days leave the longer she's with you? IE next years she's entitled to 21 days leave plus BH?

There is also a book called the good nanny guide, that might be worth having a look at.

I think it depends on how many days they get overall. To get the legal minimum and have them directed in think is meagre. If they getting 25 or 30 days maybe.

I employ a lot of staff including nannies over many years. I didn't believe that my nanny should get a worse deal than my other staff. She was a professional and I respected that. I treated her as any other employee with a detailed contract and clear working expectations on both sides.

I wouldnt be able to get admin staff to work on 20 days leave with half of them directed.

My nannies stayed a long time. The both then went to uni and are now both teachers. I supported them financially to get the qualifications they needed to do that.

Friends who seem to think their nannies are either servants or best friends seem to get through them at a rapid rate.

30 days holiday plus bank holidays? Are you joking? Do people actually get that?

I read from the OP nanny has chosen 75% of her holiday this year. The norm is 50/50.

OP does she come from somewhere far away that she wants to take a lot of holiday to go home?

The extra 3 days should definitely be unpaid at the least and I would expect her to be working all the Bank Hols except the ones you choose for her to have off. This is why it's now advised to have 28 days leave written in the contract, with a not saying that it's normally 10 days chosen by the nanny, 10 days by the family and then the Bank Holidays. You are being more than reasonable. Most employers would have laughed and said 'no way!'.

Be aware she will probably be resentful if you jet deny the request. Has she said why she wants to take so long? Is it an inconvenient time of year?

YANBU.
I'm a nanny and it's always been 50/50 with the exception of one job where my employers chose ALL my holidays and I didn't get any bank holidays off. That was unreasonable but you sound like you have been more than fair and have given her options into the bargain.
You're quite within your rights to refuse or expect the time to be unpaid or made up. If she thinks that is unreasonable she really needs to grow up

You are reasonable.

She is young, naive and she might have a nanny friend who gets more (ie if the mum is not working or the family goes away a lot).

Just tell her that this is the real world and this is the norm.

As others have said, most nannies choose half and the employers choose half. I've mainly worked for work from home Mums or SAHM's so I've generally chosen my holiday dates. I've always travelled with the families so their holidays have never affected me. In my last job though both parents worked and as it happens their holiday dates suited me really well so I took my time off then but they were very flexible about everything.

Send your nanny over to nannyjob and we'll put her straight!

You are being reasonable and your nanny isn't! I get 25 vacation days per year but 99% of them have been at my employers chosen time as due to their work/lifestyle it is nigh on impossible to plan ahead as everything changes overnight lol. So in return for nearly zero flexibility on their part I actually get more days off than I am contracted to have. Its a perk that I like more now I am used to it! But your nanny can't have more days than these contracted unless you agree to it and she takes them unpaid or in lieu of extra work done. The fact she's chosen most of her holidays to date means she's very lucky already. Now she's just pushing it IMO.

You are being totally reasonable. We have always done 4 (working) weeks 50/50 (+ bank hols) and if she wants more time off than that, she takes it unpaid or time off in lieu. We always try to be flexible and have never had an issue with it. I don't think she should be able to EXPECT additional holiday time, I do think it is at your discretion. And likewise, if you are only prepared to do it as unpaid and not time off in lieu, I don't think that is unreasonable either.

This is the real world, she is doing a proper job, and you are (presumeably) paying her properly for her, including her tax and NI....

You are being VR!

As others gave said the norm is 50/50 so 2 weeks her choice ie 10days as works 5days a week - she has gone waaaaaaaaaay over this but that's partly your fault for agreeing to it

I get 5weeks and bh - but I generally get 9/10 as my family go away a lot - their choice and I get the time off and paid

no professional nanny would argue this and you have been so fair with giving her options how to not lose salary

I can't relate to getting to choose your holidays. I'm a teacher and have holidays when they allow. Wouldn't it be nice to just tell my school that I'd rather take another week off instead.
I understand that in a lot of jobs you get to choose, but there are many cases where you cannot choose them. (I get loads so I'm not complaining, btw!)

If you stated in your contract that you would choose 75% or 100% of the time that she was to take holiday, and she signed it, then YABU. She had a choice to not take the job if she didn't like the terms.

I am also a bit put out by the suggestion that if you share the holiday choosing with your nanny that you are automatically not a respectful employer and unlikely to be able to keep them. We've had one nanny who stayed with us 3.5 years, another who did 3 years, and the current one is well into her second year and going strong. (Indeed, the current one, when she took some extra leave, offered to pay us for what we needed to do to cover for her - obviously we said no way did she have to pay! but it was completely understood on both sides that the extra holiday was a courtesy and a favour.)

I think the comparison with admin staff is a red herring too - admin staff work (usually) in a team where cover is going to be variably available - like staff in a nursery. Totally different from the bilateral no-substitution necessary mutual trust of family and nanny.

Incidentally - I did once recruit on the basis we could offer extra holiday, up to six weeks, and interestingly enough the candidates said it did not affect their interest in the job - they either wanted the job because we suited them, or they didn't. Not sure of course whether that was all the truth, but the nanny we recruited in the end (the 3.5 year one) was quite a forthright spade-a-spade person, so I'd trust what she says.

Then YABR she is BU. Sorry about that!

Thanks guys, I did think I was being reasonable and great to get all the feedback.
My husband gets 25 days holiday, and as I'm contracting I can request as much holiday as i like, but I won't get paid for it, and of course it has to be convenient for the company I work for.
We try v hard to be back in time for her working hours, and when we don't make it we let her accrue it and then she can finish early on a day of her choosing. And on the occasions where we can WFH we try to let her finish early. So I feel we're pretty nice employees already!
I think it's partly my fault as it isn't directly specified in the contract how we work the leave, so we'll add that in when it's renewal time and will take the suggestion for offering an additional days holiday for every year of service.
Thanks again, you've made me feel much better!