Should i pay my childminder when our daughter cant go to her when her kids are sick?

[emmapi]

hi. advise gratefully received -
We've recently started up with a new childminder who we think is great and our child seems happy, which is a relief, after we werent happy with our last childminder. However, she contacted us this week to say that her child (who she looks after alongside ours) was really quite sick (fever, cough and flu) so did we still want our daughter to go to her this week. She didnt decide to close, she very clearly told us our daughter could still come, but at the high risk of getting sick! I asked if we'd still have to pay if we didn?t send our daughter and she said "yes", because in our contract, we've signed with her, we've agreed she will get sick pay (not sure what contract it is, its not NCMA, but all it says is she'll get sick pay, not for how long or that this applies to when her kids are sick). However, there's no mention in the contract we signed with her, that this sick pay covers her kids being sick. I have to take annual leave if I am off work because my child is sick. I suggested she did the same - take it as annual leave, and she didn?t want to. I suggested we swap the days I work this week so she can have my daughter later in the week when her son is hopefully better, but she said she would charge us an additional day for this. I don?t want to fall out with yet another childminder, but it does seem quite unreasonable, especially given that the National Childminding association advised me that childminders don?t normally get any sick pay at all! Never mind when there kids are sick! I also worry, that in our contract with her there's no mention of how much/how long her sick pay should cover?what if she's off sick (or her kids) for months and I have to use up all my annual leave and then take unpaid leave from work! That is probably me worrying too much, as she says she's never been sick before neither have her kids (I find that hard to believe, kids are always sick!), but she had glowing references from the other parents she works with so it must be true. Advise gratefully received! I really don?t want to fall out with our childminder as she's fab with our daughter, but at the same time, can I just ignore all this and just hope neither she nor her kids are sick again? What if I then am contractually obliged to pay her for months off sick!!

I wouldn't want to pay. Ok she said you could send your child - but why would you want to in those circumstances. I think she's being v unreasonable.

i know, but what do i do - do i stick to my guns and demand she agree to take it as holiday and also that we agree a maximum amount of potential sick leave, at the risk of falling out with her?

As long as she was caring for her child in isolation eg upstairs in bed, and washing her hands well between visits to her then I would have been quite happy to have sent my children to her. It wasn't d and v, and as long as the childminder was symptom free herself I wouldn't think there to be any more risk than that encountered normally.

If you want to discuss the contract and define terms more clearly and work with her to sort this out, she shouldn't "fall out" with you over it. If she's professional, she will discuss it with you calmly and rationally. If she gets stroppy with you, that's not professional and I'd steer clear. Personally I'd just try to discuss it with her.

I think she is well out of order. But, I would never have signed up to all that in a contract. Standard practice for nannies (who unlike your childminder are employees) is SSP only.

And, absolutely, you are right that sick pay is for a sick employee -- or childminder in your case. It is not for when their children are sick. I would think it is only fair for her to bring her own children to work sick if she accepts yours when he/she is sick. I would want to send my child to her under the proviso that if my child catches the illness she will still look after him/her.

I think it is very unfair that her child can be present and infect others. But if other's catch it the doors are closed.

I suppose the fair thing would be to put this into your contract, but it's a bit late for that now.

I would not pay for these days if she had said she was unavailable because they are certainly not covered under her sick policy. But, since she did offer to take your child, she is being rather cheeky putting the decision of whether or not to show up on you.

just checked our contract and it says "your minder is entitled up to one weeks sick pay per year". spoke to her just now and she agreed to log today as sick, but tomorrow not as sick, so altho we dont feel he's well enough to send our daughter, we are paying and its not coming off as sick or holiday.

I could just never sign a contract that would mean that I might be in a position of having to pay double on some weeks for childcare (cm on holiday or sick). I understand why some cms put this in their contract, but I'm not used to paying for a service when it's unavailable. Even TalkTalk, our internet provider, did not charge us for the amount of time that it was not available to us. I know that's different. But it's a service and a contract I signed.

i have one week of sick fees in my contract but then it is deducted of the year fee ie 46 weeks full pay, 5 weeks holiday (no pay and 1 sick week (no pay) so i divide the 46 weeks over the 52. keeps everyone happy as every1 knows where they stand.
i only introduced the sick pay after having my 1st sick day off in 5 years and parents didnt no if they were to pay me or no as i had never been off.

so her child is ill yet if you didnt use her you still get charged - does seem cheeky

but

its a high temp and cold - all kids get colds so tbh i would have sent your dd - its not like S&D

yes cm are se, and generally se dont get sick pay (which mr blondes did lol) but you also agreed to her terms when you signed the contract

I am a childminder and when my dd had the mumps I did not charge the parent who decided not to send their child as he had not had his mmr. My other parents did send their children as they had been immunised.

oh dear... as always why sign something without REALLY reading it through first...!!

all contracts need to be gone through line by line.. without the children present to disturb.. she is self employed and as such can write her own terms and conditions.. its up to you to agree or not to them ..and you obviously agreed

now you have to abide by what you signed.. life lesson...

Straight to the point - Body

Problem is you may sit and talk the contract thro with them, but Im pretty sure it sometimes goes in one ear ant out the other.
In act I know it does in some cases..lol

Either I have missed something or you have just verbally agreed something over the phone to which you are actually not contractually bound. It sounds like you signed up to one week of sick pay. Sick pay does not extend to a child's illness. Yet, she is not sick time or holiday time for at least one of the days.

I still would ask to send my child under the proviso that when my child catches the cold and has a fever she looks after him/her regardless of what her sick policy says.

And speaking of her sick policy, I suggest now would be a good time to look at your contract and find out what it is.

I would not sign up to a childminding contract in which the childminder was to be paid at any time she is not available for work. And I would also not agree to her bringing her child to work in circumstances in which my child would not be allowed to attend.

But... I do think you are bound to whatever you signed up to in the contract. Live and learn, I suppose.

The service is still being offered, you are choosing not to use it. Its not her fault her child got sick. It's likely that your CM will get the cold too and pass it onto you DD anyway, without her having contact with the sick child. I know i do not take days off work sick when i have a cold.. Plus, the germs will have been buzzing around in the house for days before he got sick more than likely..

Just send her. Cms usually take children still if they have a cold, don't they?

It seems a shame that you have signed a contract when you were not aware of the terms and conditions within it. TBH you only have yourself to blame if you are 'caught unawares' like this. I am sorry if that sounds harsh but as a CM'r I go through the contracts and terms and conditions with the parent step by step but I also recommend that they go home and read everything.

I am extremely surprised that NCMA have advised you like this - NCMA generally won't advise parents in situations like this as they are the CM'r representative, the childminder is not even using NCMA contracts so they definately should not have commented and also NCMA recognise (more and more) that we are self employed persons and therefore can and do set our own terms and conditions.

Being S/E we can put in sick pay, holiday pay etc as we wish to - its up to the parent whether they agree to (sign up for).

Back to the OP - the childminders child is poorly, the minder obviously feels she can carry on minding and she is giving your a courtesy call though to let you know her child is ill, she is giving you the choice.
My t&c's state that if I am open and you choose not to use me then you still pay. I know its a difficult call and my children would come first - if they (own kids) needed nursing then yes i would close the setting and not expect money - however, it its just a little extra TLC and not really impacting upon my day/routine then I would remain open. I would give parents the option of sending their children or not though.

The idea that you should pay her sick pay is rather strange. You are not her employer. She is self employed and if she is sick she does not earn just the same as a builder or plumber. If you signed that in the contract then you have a problem. You could have sent your child to her,it would not have been certain that your child would have contracted the illness whatever it was. At the end of the day though if you choose child care for your children instead of bringing them up yourself then you are at the mercy of service providers I suppose. Ultimately you are buying a service the same as you do when you get a hair cut or get the shopping in. There is essentially no difference.

No, you shouldn't pay if your cm is unable to offer her services because her children are ill.

Add message | Report | Message poster tothepoint88 Thu 21-Oct-10 19:05:34
At the end of the day though if you choose child care for your children instead of bringing them up yourself then you are at the mercy of service providers I suppose.

I cannot believe you have said something like that tothepoint - 'instead of bringing them up yourself';
What a judgemental, supercillious and assuming attitude. I can only presume that you have said that to provoke a reaction.

People use childcare for all sorts of reasons and even if they do they are STILL bringing up their own children. Do you dispprove of parents having a life away/apart from their children? Should parents be leaving their offspring with anyone else - does this include other family members or is that acceptable to you? Should parents be educating their children through to 16yrs old instead of sending them to another provider - school or is that not shirking their responsibility? Goodness, as a parent myself - who has shock horror, used childcare facilities for my own children, i have also used friends, family and neighbours in their care as well, I am also a WORKING mother - and I am going to triple your horror - I am a 'service provider' - i work at home caring for other peoples children.

Actually your 'statement' might be provocative but its also ridiculous and pompous. I presume you are a perfect parent then are you that we should all look to as to how its done?

As for being at the 'mercy of' providers - yet again another ridiculous statement.

The more i go through it the more I find that ignorant statement quite funny in its own way.

Pippin this poster has posted same sentiment on 2 threads. Just trying for a reaction most likely. Let's all ignore the poster's nonsense. :)

hokey cokey StarExpat, thanks for the heads up. thought it had to be a trolling comment!

But I loved your response

pippin26, would you argue that you would be bringing up your own children if they spent more of their waking hours during the week with some kind of childminder? That doesn't sound like bringing up children to me. That sounds like having children for the weekend and an hour or two split between bedtime and breakfast. Your response was powerful and clearly you feel strongly. I'm not ignorant or pompous. Those are strong words and I would not use language like that to you. I do though perhaps take a view that is different to yours and I may believe that I am right as much as you believe that you are right. I know that looking after children is difficult but that is why I make my choice to look after them myself. That is my choice, you are entitled to make yours. Starexpat is entitled to ignore me and I'm glad that she gave you the heads up but I'm sure that you can handle yourself.
Is there a rule on mumsnet that unless one conforms to a certain view then you should expect to be shouted down? I think not.

OP if teh CM is still open for business and you choose not to send your child then yes she can choose to charge as normal unless it is stated in the contract that, should you choose not to send your child as a result of her child's sickness there wouldn't be a fee. now, any CMs i know would say, "no charge for today" but she is under no obligation to do that and if you have signed a contract and she choses to charge you should pay.

agree with others. have anotehr really good look at your contract and highlight anything you are unsure about or not happy with and ask to discuss teh contract. are you still withing teh settling period where there is no notice due to end the contract?

tothepoint you are incredibly smug. a CM is an adult prescence to provide nutrional and basic needs for a child for the time the child* is with them. a parent continues to provide all the needs of teh child required of a parent far and beyond the age at which a CM is necessary. yes parents you use childcare are still bringing up thier own children.