Parent already getting shifty on my fees.

[Mum2Luke]

I am starting with a school age child (8 yrs) next week and have told her my fees but she seems to think she won't be paying on her days off, I charge £45 per week which covers me for taking and picking up from school, breakfast if needed and snacks. In the holidays I charge £26 per day whether the child is there or not as I would not be able to fill the space. I don't think I am charging enough really but there are many childminders in my area and we are in competition with each other for children.

I will be starting at 7.30 till 6 and am 'on call' if he needs to be bought back from school for any reason as mum works in Stockport and does not drive.

I am sticking to my guns on this, I have told her I am going to have to be professional
while he is with me and am updating policies for her to sign. This is my wage at the end of the day for my business.

The rates sound more than reasonable to me...she can either sign the contract or not.

I don't understand - will the child normally be going to you in the school holidays? Or will he never go to you in the holidays and you're still charging £26/day for him? If the latter, I think it's a bit odd since you only have him before/after school and it's £45/week other weeks... I think I'm just by your post. Probably not your fault, btw

Agree you should stick to your guns and if you charge a retainer (presuming that's what this is) during holidays then that's the deal and if they don't want to sign, they don't have to. I presume the signed contract has the details about retainer?

Star - I don't charge a retainer but I AM usually able to get work for Holiday Only mindees, some people just can't get this so charge a retainer, quite common.

But wouldn't a retainer just be your normal weekly fee or part of that? as to why the retainer fee for holidays is a higher weekly rate?

Well my min charge for before and after school care is £12.90 per day (1 hour before and 2 hours after - £4.30 per hour). If they come say from 8-6 (earliest I start is 7 but most do around 10 hrs) then it's £43 for the day.

So if the OP has fees similar to me, her day fee in the hols sounds like it may be around half? So she's kind that she's not charging a full day fee.

Am I right OP?

I'm sorry I'm also a bit confused. If the child is taking up a full time space then why aren't you charging during the day during school time? If he/she is 8 surely he/she doesn't count into your numbers any-more. Unless a school age child comes to me during the holidays I don't charge. I only charge retainers for under 5's if parents don't use me during the holidays. If I were charging at all I would probably charge 50% of their normal weekly fee if they didn't attend during the holidays.

Apart from that, if that is what you have discussed and a contract has been signed, its your business so you need to make it clear about your charges before she starts to save any problems later.

I see that, looneytune, but if she's charge £45 for a week during the rest of the year, why doesn't this just stay the same for the holidays? or 50% of that? I don't get why it costs more?

I'm assuming the £45 is before/after school care (so around 3/4 hours a day?), not full day care, for a 5-8 year old, unless they need to be collected from school. But then that depends why they're being collected from school - surely you'll have to send them home if they're ill enough to come home from school?

Therefore it's fair enough to charge a higher daily rate during the holidays as the child is present for more hours and entirely reasonable, I'd say, to insist that either you sign a term-time only contract and the space might be available in the holidays but it might not, there's no guarantee OR you sign a contract where the hourly fee is £x, so £45 a week for before/after school and £y a week in the holidays regardless of whether you use the space or not and the care is there OR you sign the term-time contract and pay a holiday retainer and the care is there (which is possibly the best compromise). If you want the space reserved for you then you have to pay for it and it's the CM's choice whether it's full rate or half.

What I don't get is when the child, being 8, is out of the ratios, at which point it starts becoming unreasonable to charge for a space they're not taking up.

But the child never goes a full day. He goes before and after school. So why would holiday weeks be charged for full days if he never goes full days. Sounds really weird to me.

If there were other cms out there with spaces who didn't charge a full day for holiday weeks when it's just before/after school during regular weeks, I'd just go with one of them. Sorry I know that sounds horrible. But there's no way I could afford to pay - what it looks like is £130 per week instead of £45 per week that is usually charged. That's more than doubling childcare costs when he won't ever even be attending! Crazy! I'd still pay the rate I paid every week (in full) if it was my holiday time, no problem. But not more. And say that the same hours before and after school are available since she's paying in full for that time, I guess.

Ohhhh, or wait... I think I understand now! He is going to go full days during the holidays? But the mom isn't going to send him on some of her days off (which aren't all of his holidays?)?

agree with starexpat

How do we know the child never goes full days?

The info given is that the rates in term time are £45 a week presumably regardless of whether the child is there or not, in holiday it's at least £26 per full day regardless of whether the child is there or not.

The issue is that the mother doesn't want to pay for days that she isn't working but nowhere does it say she doesn't work holidays....

Basically the issue is should parents pay for days they're not using because they've chosen to take holiday when the setting is still open, and the answer (IMO) is yes, they should.

That's how I read it!

£26.00 per day seems a lot for the svhool holiday days for a school age child though...the holiday club at my school is £16 per day.

Really?! It's £2.60 an hour for a 10 hour day. A nanny would cost you at least 3 times that.

School holiday clubs also don't have the flexibility a CM does, nor are they necessarily there all holiday. Those things are a premium you pay for.

I also read it that the child does normally go there but mum doesn't want to pay when she decides not to send. I may be wrong though.

Still.......I've NEVER charged a retainer however I do understand why people need to charge one. For me personally, if I never got holiday only requests but plenty of full time requests and then got a request for Term Time only, I'd have to say something along the lines of 'sorry, I am unable to offer term time only contracts as I need to maximise my income I'm afraid. The only way I'd be able to help you is if you paid a retainer over the holiday period, in order to keep your space open for when they're back at school'. Them being over 8 doesn't change the fact my car is a 7 seater so the ratio thing doesn't change anything for me personally.

The reason for charging more per week in the hols than in term time is because they'd be with me for 3-5 hours a day during term time and up to 11 hours in the hols.

Star - I totally get YOU couldn't afford to do this but also some childminders can't afford to have days unfilled. So IF I was unable to do term time only, I'd have to say that I was very sorry you couldn't afford it but that's my rates and I hope you manage to find someone suitable. This isn't being greedy and luckily I DO get holiday only mindees, I'm just trying to explain the maths/finances and why some people have to charge retainers. :)

thehairybabysmum - I charge £4.30 ph regardless of age so if a child is with me 10 hours, that's £43 per day! Our local holiday club is also much cheaper but I've got people who come to me after pulling them out of the club and people who just prefer my set up of going out and about every day than the club set up. Everyone is different but I certainly have no problem at all filling those spaces. If I was to charge £16 per day, I'd hardly make anything (after all the food they eat through the day and entry fees into places, resources for them to make things etc.)

OP - I'm now curious as to whether this child is or isn't with you ever in the hols

Oh and going back to affordability - you'd be surprised what some would pay. I have a 3 and half year old mindee who started with me at 8 weeks old and mum really wanted one to one care but also wanted me as her childminder. I explained that I couldn't afford to provide one to one care unless she paid double (I laughed and said 'but of course yoou won't want to do that') and she said yes please to paying double for it!!! Obviously that was in the early days and over time, things changed and I was allowed to get another mindee :)

I understand if the child normally does go in the holiday time. I also totally understand charging a retainer... but what I don't understand is charging a retainer that costs more than normal hours. I would agree to pay 100% of the normal hours costs but certainly not more as a retainer.

I also understand that cms need to charge what they need to charge for their own salary. But surely, that doesn't mean charging parents more than double for a school holiday ... If my contract was 7.30-8.30am and 3.30-6pm, and I paid for those hours for term time, I'd also expect to pay those same hours, the same amount during holiday time (as I do - diff hours though) if he was to keep the same hours, or not attend at all... I wouldn't expect the cm to charge me for a full day during hols if he didn't normally attend a full day out of hols. That doesn't make sense. It does make sense for the cm to charge the same rate as usual for the same hours even if he doesn't attend. Then she is receiving the same income and not losing out. However, if he is attending a full day in the holiday, then she should pay for that!

Also, if she's choosing not to pay just because she's taking holiday - that's taking the piss and totally not on.

I'm sure there are parents who can afford and will pay loads. I wish I could do that, and I know many who wish they could as well. I love my cm. Sadly, if she did this, I'd have to change cms and it would break my heart... but I guess she'd just be for those lucky parents who could afford it to pay so much extra during these periods :(

Having said that, £26/day sounds like a real bargain to me and nothing to moan about! I'm assuming this is far away from the SouthEast because I haven't seen anything like that around here. And I agree that £16/day wouldn't be worth it to a cm... even £26/full day seems ingly inexpensive.

Star, I totally get what you are saying but the reason for not charging just for those hours at school is because no one else would be able to take the rest of the hours place. Why would I want paying for 3-5 hours when I could potentially be paid for 10 hours. As I said earlier, I'm not saying what's right or wrong, I'm explaining that many of us factor in being full in the hols as our overall income.

Luckily I don't need to be like that in my area but if you came to visit me wanting just term time and i knew i couldn't fill the hols, as nice as you are (and I know you are from here :)) I'd have to turn you down. It's about supply and demand and some areas just don't have any call for holiday only care.

I think I understand now.
But I do pay for holidays that I take. All 21 weeks per year of them. Same amount as term time. DS attends 8 hours/day and we pay for that every week regardless of term/holiday. I'd be really if my cm started charging me more than double for the holiday periods... I pay the same amount as always - steady income.

If the child doesn't come in the holidays but she keeps paying the same amount as always, it's not losing her anything, right? Unless she could fill the space with another mindee.... but if the area doesn't have a calling for holiday only care, then she won't be able to fill the space anyway, right? Or is it because she wants to fill the space but can't since he's on her books and she could get someone to come and pay for 10 hours instead of 5? I have no idea about limits of numbers for over 5s/8s...

Sorry, not meaning to be argumentative, I'm just trying to understand it from your POV more clearly.

Along the same lines, we never send ds during our holidays, but do pay for them and the space is there for us. If I say, we won't send DS, can she fill his space during hols with another under 5 mindee for holiday only? Or not since DS is technically still paying/space available? Just wondering how this works. I was hoping that since we promise never to send him during that time, it would mean she could take someone else... now I'm not so sure this is possible after reading this.

If your DS attends 8 hours anyway then I'd charge you the same. But say 3 hrs care wouldn't be the same in the hols. As for not being able to fill holiday only care, what i mean is if there was no call for holiday only care, i'd want a full time (i.e. not term time only contract) where they come for longer hours in the hols (like all mine do).

She MAY be able to fill the space, depends on demands where you are. If she was able to then yes she could take it as not actually over her allowed numbers, but if that was me and that happened, I'd refund you what you paid for that day. Does that make sense? (sorry, I'm on the beer!)

Oh I'd never expect her to refund me anything for it. I'd just hope she could get a bit extra from it! Glad to hear that it's possible (given the market).

Ok, I get it. see, I wasn't thinking from a "normal" perspective... As a teacher, I didn't even think about that - that most kids who are in school typically would still need all day care during school holidays. That makes sense, then if that is how contracts for school aged children are normally arranged. I get it now - I'd like to say that alcohol was my reason... sadly, it's not .

Pleased you got it in the end :) Sorry I didn't come back last night but my bloomin internet kept dropping and I gave up (I didn't realise it HAD actually posted my last message!)

He will be coming all day during the holidays as well as term-time and I don't think £26 per day (during the hols) is that expensive when he is getting breakfast, lunch and snacks in that. Holiday clubs are cheaper because they have more children paying but I do not think the children get the attention they sometimes need. Childminders are losing business due to breakfast clubs and after school clubs.

I charge £10 per day (which is cheaper than £3.50 per hour all day) or £3.50 per hour for the 2 hours if I am having him just after school. I cannot fill his space with another child during the day while he is at school and I am 'on call' for emergencies as his Mum cannot get back as she doesn't drive.

It annoys me that people think that because they are not working different days I lose out by not being able to fill the space and lose out on a wage.

I have asked Early Years co-ordinators advice about what I should charge and they were saying £30 per day. This Mum gets Tax Credits as she doesn't declare her partner's earnings whereas if I was going out to work I would have no help because our Tax Credits are being stopped and I would need a very good wage to pay a childminder. I have done this job since 2003, have NVQ Level 3 Early Years care and Education and am hoping to work towards EYP Satus.