Why do we get it so bad compared to other countries?

[nosferatu]

I have a lot of friends who live in other countries and I am from former Yugoslavia myself and I can not help but compare the childcare situation. Over there is it fairly subsidised and women don't stay at home because of costs of childcare. When I moved to uk years ago I thought that going to work would be much easier then it is. I couldn't financially justify going to work and I have put my career on hold. But I can't say it was purely out of choice. 1300£ a month (for a not necessarily good nursery but that's another issue) is simply too much for anyone and I feel like we have to be able to afford to go to work. In Germany you can get it for 400£ month France I hear it's the same Scandinavia even less...and so on. (ok cost of living and food is not the same but you get the idea about the proportion of the earnings)

I wonder why the "4th strongest economy" in the world has such a bad deal for women and why doesn't it ever reach an election debate.
Do you share the same opinion or are you happy with the way it is?

We get it much better than other countries too. Think about America where a 6-12 week parental leave is a good deal - I knew woman who were back at work 6 weeks post c-section with twins.

In the Czech Rep there are very few nurseries that cater to under 3s - I have friends over there who on one hand love that they get 2 years off work but on the other hand have nowhere to put their children in that year between 2 and 3 when they have to go back to work. Plus which several have said to me they wish they could come back to work sooner like we do here, as they feel they are massively missing out on any career development. (their husbands all think it's great - wifey at home catering to their every need while they go out and work - but best not to get me started).

£1300 is a lot for 1 month of nursery - are you in London? For me it would be £800 a month for a good nursery in the SE, but I've been lucky to come back part time, and found a great child minder for days the nursery didn't have available. I'd say I'm happy with the balance between working and mothering in this country.

I think we all have different stories and different circumstances and I am glad you are happy and for many people who have found that balance .

I think it really depends in what earning bracket you are as well. I have rejected 3 jobs because I wouldn't make 10% profit after childcare has been paid. Ok kids go to school early when they're 4-5 but I have to say most of my friends are at home and the only ones who went back to work with pre school children are in a "higher" earning tier.

( I am in London )

I'm in Bristol - a nursery place will set me back about £950 a month, CM £750. Germany and Scandinavia also have much better parental leave/pay situations - but then they also pay much more tax.

Basic rate tax in Norway is 28%, and 7,4 % NI. (Salaries are generally higher, though).
A full time nursery place is £250 per month. MMaternity leave is either 10 months at 100% salary, or 12 months at 80% salary.
Standard working week is 35 hours.

FWIW, imho, childcare in the UK is expensive because it is so tightly regulated. Any fool and his donkey can set up as a professional babysitter in most of the USA, they can take on as many children as they like there, they don't get inspected regularly, etc. Children are also much more tax deductable in the US system (as are non-working spouses or other dependents). Which

Situation in the USA makes childcare very affordable but it also means you don't know what you're getting half the time.

ooh! lost Which "makes working much more economical" in last post.

I have recently went to see " the best nursery" in my area 15 months waiting list highly in demand etc etc.
There are 5 cotsin the baby room and the room smells of mould.
There is no sunlight as they're in a basement. The garden is 5x 5 metres. In the kitchen I saw packs of Tesco "value" food.
Over the course of 3 years I saw 4 more and they were worse.

1300£ full time
drops to 1200 after second birthday
bring your own formula milk and nappies. Is that normal?

QS I have worked in Norway and I agree. And the nurseries are amazing at least what I have seen.

I think you should broaden your horizons and think globally. Why stop at comparison to Europe? I entirely agree that childcare is too expensive in the UK. I too live in London. Most of my money goes to childcare and it has made me bitter on more than one occassion. However, I disagree that it is a woman's issue.

Childcare should be tax deductable. All of it. I think my childcare bill with 3 children (two in school full time) will be about £2500 per month. Good-bye paycheque. Nobody helps me pay that bill. In fact they want me to pay more taxes because I'm one of the wealthy. Only I'm not because they taxed the Hell out of me just to pay my childcare just to go to work, just to give it all away. So, any suggestion of raising my taxes further so I can pay other people's childcare too makes me want to... well... rob a bank (or two).

nosferatu - the nursery DS goes to is bloody good, but it's on a university campus, and so the kids can roam the grounds (in herds under supervision!) - it's clean, bright, doesn't smell, the staff all know the children - DS has been there 3 weeks and already everyone in the room he's in can tell me what he's been doing that day - when I drop him off, they all seem happy to see him. I've been down to feed him when he's there and sat watching the staf, and they are just lovely with the children. The food is freshly prepared and the kids seem to enjoy it.

But I accept I'm incredibly lucky! oh, and I got the money wrong, it's closer to £1000 a month - but we're doing school days only which is £800/month if full time.

Have you looked at childminders near you? may be a better option than nursery if your local nurseries are so bad?

Childcare in the uk is so expensive because it is not subsidied by the state, to allow both parents take part of the workforce.

Ragged, whereas what you say could be true, as could the above.

Childcare in Norway is cheap (in comparison to the uk) and it is also very tightly regulated here. There are hardly any nannies, childminders or au pairs here.

The government has no business running my childcare and I certainly would never like to pay them for their intrusion efforts.

They can't run:
banks
NHS
CSA
schools

Why would I want them to meddle in my childcare arrangements?

Strix, so what you are saying is basically that you are happy to pay so much for childcare, you dont want your childcare to be partially funded by the government? Like schools are?

What I dont get is that if you work 16 hours a week as a lone parent, wtc will pay towards your childcare costs, but if you work less than that they wont. But, working 15 hours a week, you still have childcare costs, and as the only wage earner there is literally no point in you working less than 16 hours a week as you will be working to pay childcare. How is that incentive to work??
Sorry, off topic a bit, but my personal bug bear.

Strix I am not suggesting any tax increase. I am in agreement with you - my husband is freelance and pays a lot of money in tax. I think that the issue of childcare- both costs and standards is totally neglected in the political and media sphere and perhaps needs revisiting and looking into. That is my bottom line. There are a lot of people who are not happy but it doesn't get mentioned anywhere. I have compared it to other countries to illustrate it better but the problem is there within our society. Childcare is a business like any other and the government doesn't step into it. And if they ever do it will not help the taxpayer.

It is not solely a women's issue but women are more likely to undertake a task of looking after children then men at the moment. We are the ones who compromise with part time deals and whatever it takes to make it smooth for the family. Look at the recruitment web sites "working mums" "women like us" just to name a few.

I am saying I don't want a culture of state run nurseries in exchange for increased taxes. But I do want childcare to become more affordable through tax deductions. Then working people could better afford the childcare and stay in work.

veta - yes I pay childminder when I do work ( on ad hoc basis) - and I am very happy with her. I don't make much money but it helps the brain tick.

globlamouse- you are not off the topic at all and I agree it is total absurdity.

But, nos, the only way you will get state subsidies (like much of Europe) is through increased taxes. Whilst I agree with your point on the high cost of childcare, I am not prepared to have my taxes increased. And even if I was, I don't want the state to run my childcare. They are not qualified to decide what is best for my children's development/education.

Agree with strix. IMO a lot of (most) taxpayers don't want to put their kids into day nurseries, particularly before 3. Why should they subsidise those who do?

You are already subsidizing a lot of non-working mums why not help the ones who want to work?

Childcare should be tax deductable. I wouldn't need it if I wasn't working. Mine are in school now so thankfully the full time nursery bills are behind me now but for a long time I worked for my NI stamps and pension contribution. I had nothing else left over.

Also to mat leave - ours is not so bad really. I used to work in a company with a US office and one of the girls there came back 3 weeks after having her 2nd child. She couldn't afford to be off any longer. And she thought she was getting a good deal because they let her bring the baby with her for the first couple of months. She was speechless when she heard how much paid time off we got in the UK.

I would like to call them non-working people. This is not a mum issue. It is a parent issue.

Just because I am forced to contribute some does not mean it's okay to force me to contribute more.

An, of course, some people really need help to get back on their feet. But, I don't see why I should work more so that others can work less. And, actually I couldn't work more if I wanted to. I left for work on Tuesday morning and will be home to see my children after they are asleep tonight. I am also in my third trimester with baby number three. And I really don't feel I need to pay more money for state nurseries for people who only want to work say 20 hours a week.

I'm in France and whilst childcare is cheaper and would be subsidised the ratios are crazy, the staff have minimal training, they're like regimented sausage factories and I'm sure as hell not handing over my baby to that. I'll recruit my own nanny and take the financial hit or stay at home until they go to maternelle at 3.

Believe me that childcare in the UK might cost but for the part it's better quality. The worst CMs I saw in the UK are comparable to the best here and there's nothing which even come close to a nice nursery.

Now that might be partly my location but in general standards are higher IME so you don't have it all bad!

Making childcare, including nannies, fully tax deductible would do a lot. But then people wouldn't like nannies being forced to register if they wanted that saving.

Hi Frak!

Why would nannies have to register in order for the parents to get the tax break?

"This is not a mum issue. It is a parent issue."

I think that's a bit wishful thinking strix - it almost always ends up being the mum who deals with childcare - DH and I share the paying of our childminder and nursery just becasue my bank was being arsey about weekly DDs - otherwise I'd have been doing the lot out of my salary.

sadly the burden of childcare normally falls upon the mother, so if her salary doesn't cover it, then it does not make sense for her to work. 'tis the way of things now, no matter how much we'd all love it not to be.

and nosferatu - why couldn't the childminder do longer hours if you work longer? If ours had had the space, DS would have gone to her 5 days a week, she's affordable and good.