Help!Nannyshare wages with nanny with her own child????

[julinka]

Dear All,

I would like to ask you for advice regards wages for a nannyshare.

I am an experienced nanny with own child and have an interest from two families to look after their children plus mine.

The childcare would be in their houses and we all live in London.

My thoughts are I wanted to ask £9 an hour net when having 2 children(and my own) and £6.50 an hour when having only one of them(and my own).

Do you think this is fair,or am I asking too much?

Also if anyone please know any information regards nanny who works in 2 families and being registered?Is this as a voluntary nanny registration or childminder?I have read somewhere on the net that you could be registered as a childminder even if it is not in your own house.

Thank you for your help.

Julia

There are legal issues if someone works for 3 families at the same time, so caring for children from Parents1, Parents2 and Parents3.
Where it is care of children from Parents1 and Parents2, then that does not fall under Registered Childminder legislation.

The Childcare (Exemptions from Registration) Order 2008 says:
Exempt Childminding

a child or children for particular parents ( ?the first parents?) and, in addition, for a child or children for different parents ( ?the second parents?), wholly or mainly in the home of the first parents or the second parents or in both homes;
~~

The issue is that you, having a child of your own, may be considered to be Parents1.   


You can register as a childminder and provide childminding from a home in which you do not live.   However the home owner of that home may not be very happy to have to comply with childminder legislation!   So in reality I feel that is  non starter - don't consider it.

Registering as an Ofsted Registered Nanny is under the voluntary scheme, it will enable the parents to pay using Tax Credits or Childcare Vouchers.   It has no affect on the legislation regarding requirement to register as a childminder.   So that does not solve the problem.

If you want to do it, then just do it and see  if the regulator ever kicks up a fuss.  If they do, appeal against the decision and take it to tribunal.  The tribunal will then rule on it and then we will all know for sure what the answer is.  Until then, we don't know how a tribunal will respond.  They could decide either way... it's down to if your own child is considered to be a child of Parents1 (you), or if you are considered to be the person providing the care and thus not Parent1, so can therefore care for children in addition to your own from Parents1 and Parents2.

Legislation is open to challenge.  It is not clearly defined in a situation like this.  You can argue that the current wording can be interpreted as meaning you can care for children unrelated to you for up to 2 families at the same time.

So as they say hope that's clear - as mud! <img loading="lazy" class="inline-flex mumsnet-emoji" alt="Grin" src="https://www.mumsnet.com/build/assets/grin-D7Eg_B6y.png">

With regard to your salary figures... you should be dealing in Gross not Net.  Net will complicate things horribly as you don't know how the tax codes will be split (if indeed it's split at all).  You don't know if the families will be individual employers, or joint employers.   

Also as a nanny you are paid a salary, you do not get to dictate that salary.  The parents should have got together and decided what salary to offer you, then you can negotiate that salary.   

Why would you want a lower salary if nannying for only one family?   That does not make sense in nannying terms.  A nanny is paid regardless of the number of children for whom they care.  

Do these two families know each other?  The families need to agree on a lot of things and should have a contract between themselves so that things such as who pays for what, what happens if someone wants to end the share, things like that are sorted out between the families.

I'm getting the impression (rightly or wrongly) that these families may not really know each other and are thinking that you are more like a Childminder, charging them a fee per hour for actual care provided.

I'm reading far too much into what you have written of course... think we need a lot more information from you.

Nannynick, it is common for nannies to be paid more for nannying for two families, and not just about the number of children. There are all sorts of different issues arising out of a nanny share which the nanny should be compensated for.

Yes, I agree that a nannyshare is paid more overall... but if one family in that share decides not to use the nanny on a particular day, does that mean the salary should drop?

But, if at the outset nanny is to work Mon, Tues, Weds with family A and Tues, Weds, Thurs with family B you will have 2 days a week where nanny is working with only one family at a time and it would be unfair to pay a nannyshare premium on those days. Hence the different rates of pay.

In the application guidance for Oftsed it says ' You should apply as Childminder if you are caring for more than two families wholly or mainly in the home of a child in your care. This is because the law says that people who do this come under the category of childminder if they care for children from three families together'

However, one of my nanny friends works for two families plus brings her own DS with her and Ofsted haven't complained as yet. I think when it says 'three families' it only refers to paying families and not your own child. Or it could be they weren't paying attention when processing her application and haven't realised yet!

but if one family in that share decides not to use the nanny on a particular day, does that mean the salary should drop?

This is what my friend does with her nanny share plus own child. I think it is only when you bring your own child as well. They work it out that a nanny would be paid X amount and split that between 3 i.e. parent1, parent2 and the nanny.

I'm not making a judgement on whether this is the correct way to go about it, just informing you of what they do! I suppose it's up to the individual nanny and families to come to an arrangement that works for them.

"but if one family in that share decides not to use the nanny on a particular day, does that mean the salary should drop?"

In this sort of senario, no the nanny should not get less in her wages. This is something that must be pointed out to the employers at the outset, so that they are clear about how the pay structure works. But, if the share starts off as I've outlined above , then a lower rate for the one family only days would be appropriate.

Maybe a different way to look at it is to work out what premium the share days should have... so should it be 10% more, 20% more etc?

Everyone involved in the share needs to come to an agreement on the pay structure... so do whatever works for everyone.

Could a nanny insurance company argue their policy was invalid if the OP (legally/in their view) needed to be registered as a childminder due to these circumstances, does any one know?

In the event of a large claim I expect insurance companies will argue over a lot of things.
As long as the situation is explained to the insurer prior to cover commencing, then the insurer is aware of the situation - they can then charge for policy based on that information / risk level.
Best to write to insurer making them aware of anything significant that may affect risk... they can then decide to provide cover or not.

Childcare insurers provide cover for Childminders and Nannies, so they should be able to adapt a policy to suit the situation.

One limit they often impose is the total number of children.

I totally agree that law can be challenged in many ways.

I have got the first meeting with both families next week and they are both new at this.

And of course arrangements ,pays and issues if one family drops out on a day I am supposed to have 3 kids together or child is sick etc)

I do think what nannylocal mentioned about her friend is legal in every way.

I would prefer to be registered childminder to be honest,but as I understand Ofsted would have to come for the visit in one of the families(obviously with them accepting it) or do they come to both houses?

I don't think I will consider voluntary nanny registration(unless parents will pay for it) as I don't have any benefits out of it.

Nannynick the salary figures I mentioned above are just the rough guide.In gross terms it would be somewhere around 9.70 an hour with three families and 7.20 an hour for one family and me.This is when I am going to be registered childminder.As a registered childminder I will be self-employed and can dictate my own terms.
If I will be considered as a nanny then I negotiate with families anyway.But have to tell them about both possibilities.

I think it is just fair that I do not charge one family same amount as when I look after both families.

Hmmm..in terms of insurance,,need to ring up and check everything.

As a registered childminder you would be working from your own home and not the home of the children you will be looking after. As a registered childminder you would be self employed. For the type of job as a nanny that you are describing you will not be able to be self employed, you will be employed.

The Voluntary Nanny Registration (think it's called a home childcarer), as you say, is of benefit for the employer and as suc they would usually bear the cost of the registration. You may find that your potential employers will require you to register so that they can use childcare vouchers.

I appreciate your answer nbee84 but registered childminder work from domestic premises but not necessarily from their own home.Hence,I would have to ask one of the families to have their house checked by Ofsted,which might be a hassle for them.

I think that will be a very big hassle. Childminders on here often comment about how Ofsted want their homes more like nurseries - paper towels, no smoking signs, child level coat hooks etc. Plus it can take many months to become registered.
Please do not try to go down that route, while it is legally possible the systems are not designed to enable it to happen, there will be problems.

Could you not rent somewhere bigger, register that for childminding, then care for 5 under 8's plus some over 8s.

The childminder thing is a red herring here. You will not be a childminder, you will be employed to look after children from two families (mainly) in the homes of the families which is exempt childcare i.e. a nanny.

Nick by your reading, a childminder with charges from only one family (Family 1) plus her own children (Family 2) looked after in her own home (home of Family 2) would be exempt from registration!

I can't help with your nannying question, I'm afraid, but would just like to say that you only need to put one question mark after writing a question. All this business ???? does you no favours.

doesn't self employment also mean negotiation of holiday pay as you are not automatically entitled to it and also no sick pay/maternity pay as such?

It would also surely be tempting to take on more children as you've gone through all the registering hassle and could make more money by doing so. Obviously not really an option in someone else's home.

And what a faff with all the paperwork re. tax and ofsted. would family pay for your time to do all that? if they can afford it families often want nanny vs. childminder as its less hassly/more accommodating for everyone...

there really should be an easier, more fit for purpose system but ???

Yes, if the carer provides care for children of Family 1 and Family 2 in either Family 1 or Family 2 home, then it is exempt from Childminder registration.
No mention in legislation with regard to the childcarer having children of their own. Thus I consider the exemption would apply in this case and childminder registration is NOT required.

Julinka - It is not sensible to be a Childminder and operate from property which you do not live in yourself.

Use the exemptions available to make yourself a Nanny, whilst you find your own home from which you can childmind. Once caring for children at your home you can then take on more children up to your registration limit.

Your last family took advantage, I am wondering if these two families are also trying it on... they want you to be a Childminder don't they - is this their idea?

NN- Does the legislation re. 2 or 3 families mention the word 'employment' or 'working for' 'cos maybe that would be clearer I suppose, or does it just say 'provide care'?

MrA, just rereading your question...
No if the person providing care was considered to be Family 2 and they provided the care in their home, instead of in the home of Family 1, then it would not be exempt.

An important factor is where the care takes place.

If the care takes place in the carers home, then it will not be exempt. It is only exempt if the care is provided in the looked after child's home.

This is why nannies can't take children back to their [the nannies] home for 2 hours+

Olingo - see link given earlier.
It says "where a person makes the provision"
So nothing to do with employment status or things like that.

Yes I am so aware of that.
I am actually right now doing a nannyjob,but taking a First Aid Certificate this weekend and really seriously thinking of becoming a childminder.I attended all 2 sessions with local Lambeth but just haven't got a right property right now and still have to to ICT sometime soon.

One of the things,that attracts me to being a childminder is that I am my own boss and I dictate the hours(although we all know we have to be flexible),setting up my policies and I really do not mind the hassle of paperwork.

Is just how you say nannynick,I would have to move to the bigger property and risk asses it.Well I just think in long term it has more benefits than being "employed" by two families.

That's why I am asking for the advice and really appreciate your knowledge and support.

So back to my original question,do you think my gross wage negotiations is reasonable?or if I have to carry on as a nanny,and having hassle not to work from my own place shall I ask for more?

By the way,I am very impressed with your memory nannynick :o.I have posted my problems with previous family few month ago and left them already.

I don't think the potential new families want to take advantage,they want to be sure it is legal,they ask sensible questions,also regards insurance.

I actually met this lady on the train by chance and while having a baby talk,so when she realized I am a nanny,she was pleased.

She and her friend are going to work for the first time and it is very new for them.
They probably don't know what exactly childminder means and that registered childminders mainly operate from their own homes.

You would need to carry on as a nanny.

A nanny in London doing a share I expect is on £12 an hour Gross, £10 an hour gross when not in a share. Though of course the salary could be higher/lower based on experience and other factors.

I don't work in London, so don't know local rates... ask local nannies what they get.