What does a day with a Nanny look like (vs at nursery)?

[HomeEcoGnomist]

Hi - I am looking into childcare options now that I am due back to work after DC2...

DS1 has been in a private nursery, but as it's going to cost c. £28k per annum (I feel sick writing that...) to put them both in, I am thinking that a nanny may be a better option.

I am trying to work out the true cost of having a nanny, so would really like some ideas of how they would plan to spend the day with 2 boys, so I can factor in classes/activities etc.

So, if we look at this starting next Jan, the deal would be:

Maybe 4 days/week, could be 5

DS1 - will be 3.8 yrs. I am looking into sending him to the local nursery attached to the primary school here, it would be afternoons only. TBH, I would probably consider leaving him in nursery (private or state) for 3 or 4 sessions a week anyway, I like the aspect of socialising that nursery gives.

DS2 will be almost 1 yr

How many classes/activities a week would be normal?
[I know that I aim to get out of the house every day, but I am told that lunch/coffee
is not really an 'activity' per se ]

I am also thinking that since DS1 will start primary school in Sept 2011, and will be part time for one term at least (!) then a nanny would be logistically sensible. Is that a good assumption?

What other 'hidden costs' do I need to think about?

Thanks

I had an experienced nanny for 4 days a week, salary £25.5K. Add recruitment cost (£2500), employer's NI (£3000), payroll cost (£200), Ofsted registration costs (£500 inc first aid and childcare course), lunch, dinner and snacks for nanny and DDs, outings, nappies, classes, utilities... I think nannies are rarely cost effective, unless you find someone who is inexperienced or a nanny share. And it comes with the hassle of having to employ someone with employment rights, sick leave, maternity leave, taxes, contracts, paid holidays, performance management, references.

However if you do find a good nanny, it does take away a lot of the day to day hassle.

if working 5 days then maybe 2/3 structured things, i feel confidence with swimming is essential so either lessons or regular splashtime

as well as either music and/or tumbletots etc

other hidden costs are larger food/electricty bills

pterol costs or are you going to previde a car?

kitty of £10/20 a week, possibly more in holidays when have both children

sure there are more

Example Costs of Employing A Nanny - in my example, the total annual cost is above your £28k.

Typical day:

7.30am - Nanny arrives, starts/finishes giving children breakfast, gets children dressed.
8.30am - School Run (in your case this would not happen yet, but would in a year or so's time.)
9.15am - Shove a load of washing in the machine, sick dishwasher on (if full) then leave for morning activity: Toddler Group, Walking in Country Park, Legoland (or other such place), Museum trip, Swimming etc.
This can mean trips out as part of a group... such as meeting up with other childcarers (nannies, childminders) who have similar aged children, thus a social event for the children and the adults (can be a very lonely job if not seeing another adult all day).
10.15pm - Snack time
11.30am - arrive back home (if not on a full day outing) and prepare lunch.
12pm ish - Lunchtime
12.45pm - Take oldest to afternoon nursery
1pm - Nap Time for youngest (if lucky), hang up washing, make a loaf of bread, make some biscuits/cake (or prepare things for doing that once older child returns home, so they can help), run the vac around a bit / sweep the floor.
2.45pm - Go to collect eldest from nursery
3.15pm - Make cakes, do puzzles, play with playdough (make playdough), play with train set, play outside, go to the park/river/nature walk.
3.45pm - Snack time
4.30pm - Make dinner
5pm ish - Eat dinner
5.45pm - Watch Spot DVD/Cbebbies
6.15pm - Storytime
6.30pm - Bathtime
7pm - Sleep?

It's a bit hard to do a general routine as it will vary quite a bit depending on what the children like to do, what timescales are involved, what places they have to be at certain times (such as nursery start/finish time). But I hope that gives you some idea of how a day may go along.

How many classes/activities a week would be normal?

What do you mean by classes? I don't tend to do ANY paid classes, where you pay in advance for a block of classes. Tend to do things on an ad-hoc basis dependent on things such as weather conditions, child's current interest (child suddenly mentions helicopters... we find a helicopter museum - child wants to see a castle... we go to a castle).

I aim to get out of the house Every Day. That need not be a class... it could mean going for a walk in the countryside. Children need exercise... bit like dogs... need a good walk every day if possible.

coffee is not really an 'activity'
Well it can be a social event. I meet up with several childminders (sometimes 3 of them, plus me the nanny) and we all walk a mile - Walk Route - from a carpark to a coffee shop. The children then all sit together at a table, adults have a table next to them (so we can observe closely) and adults have coffee, whilst the children have their drinks and snacks. The toddlers and babies all seem to 'talk' quite a lot to each other... though very hard to tell what they are talking about

Micky - yes, I have come to the conclusion that I won't be saving money this way! But I am thinking about it because one of the girls from DS1's nursery is leaving, and showed an interest in nannying. So no recruitment costs. The rest of the admin I can deal with (I am in HR, so no stranger to the employment side of things) I suppose I feel that my (gulp) 28k could be spent differently, and the nanny would get more than she does now (her £12k salary seems a ludicrously low amount, given the fees we pay...)

Blondes - thanks, that's a good idea re swimming.
Had considered the food thing, but not car. What would be the preference? I can actually bus to work and leave the car - which I only started using for the nursery pick ups...

Be careful about employing nursery staff... check your contract, as there may be a clause preventing you from employing someone for a period of time, even if the nursery staff member leaves then subsequently contacts you.

Nannying is different to working in a nursery... some people who have worked in nurseries adapt well, others struggle. In nursery they get rest breaks, lunch break, they have other people to talk to, they have other people to plan things and help with activities. Nannies are on their own... so it can take a while to adapt to the different way of working.

i prefer to have a car, actually not prefer, i demand a car - i wont use my car but not every nanny is as fussy as me

i just find uses boss's car easier, no moving car seats/buggs/muddy footprints in my car eat, also generally my boss's cars are more exspenisve and safer than mine if in an accident

mb gets a taxi to station and i pick her up, works well, we chat about our days then talk complete rubbish

love nicks daily plan, though i leave for school 2.45 and not back till 4.30 so no puzzles/make biscuits etc as then homework while tea is cooking

Blondes also demands prefers a Credit Card!

I prefer using my own car... much easier as I know how to drive it, how it behaves in different weather conditions etc.

tis true, tho again with a credit card you can see EXCALTY where the kitty goes, plus handy when filling up my tank works car, takes £80ish to fill it, picking up mb dry cleaning/getting food shopping etc

i know whatever car i drive, if it snows NOTHING will get up my works hill lol

Something to consider car wise is insurance... as if prospective nanny is under 25, they may be hard to insure on your car (if you have a nice expensive car). If nanny provides their own car, they also provide their own insurance (there is a specialist policy available for childcarers to hopefully provide as much cover for paid-passengers as possible).

Nick - thanks for all your comments. My coffee comment was really a reference as to how I spend my time at the minute (an all too frequent response to the question 'So what do you do all day?' ) I would have no problem with a walk followed by coffee, as you describe.

I know you don't have to be doing paid activities all the time, and I would really like some ad hoc days out based on what the boys like to do. Just trying to guage what expectations might be in that area.

I am going to have a interview good talk with the girl nexr week to see if she really does understand what she could be getting herself into. The last thing I want is to rearrange everything to be told 2 months in that it's not what she thought, and she's resigning.

I am pretty sure the nursery contract does have a non poaching clause. Realistically, what would the nursery do? I know that technically it would be breach of contract - but I have seen plenty of non compete/non solicitation clauses in my professional life, and very few of them are effectively enforced. How would the nursery know?

blondes - credit card?! That may be a step too far for DH...!

She will need to not tell anyone at nursery - which may be hard.

How they enforce such a term in a contract I have no idea... expect they just get a solicitor to write a letter and hope someone does not dispute it and take it to county court (or which ever court would deal with that sort of thing).

How many classes/activities a week would be normal?

We do something every morning. Playgroups a couple of times a week (about £2 a time), a singing group (£3-5) and baby gym (£5ish a session, book for the term). The older ones also do afterschool activities once or twice a week (currently ballet about £5 a session, book for the term). There is a huge choice of things to do (we're in London) and a lot of them are free including a playcentre, free playgroup, library singing/storytime etc. so you could do a couple of things a day and not spend a penny! Depends on what you ask the nanny to do (though he/she may begrudge not being able to spend anything!)

I would probably consider leaving him in nursery (private or state) for 3 or 4 sessions a week anyway, I like the aspect of socialising that nursery gives.

You should be getting 15 hours a week free nursery education, so you could use that to keep him in pre-school/nursery 3 sessions a week. I wouldn't worry about the socialisation too much though, any good nanny will organise playdates and take outings to playgroups etc. where there will be other kids his age to play with.

a nanny would be logistically sensible. Is that a good assumption?

Yes. When you have two children, needing to be different places, at different times a nanny or childminder would be easier than a nursery as they will pick-up/drop off as required. Another thing to think about is that if he's at a nursery he won't be able to have his new school friends round to play after school, or join in with clubs that go on afterschool, whereas a nanny will cater for this.

What other 'hidden costs' do I need to think about?

The only thing I can think of that hasn't been mentioned is 'wear and tear' on your house - if they're doing playdough/paint/cooking/sticking etc at home instead of nursery you may find your cleaning bill increases!

Our day looks like this (actually it's changed very recently, but this is how it looked for the previous school year).

8am - finish up breakfast, dress the youngest, get everything ready for school.

8:30am - leave for school (drop DC1 and DC2)

9-11am - activity with DC3 (gym, playgroup, library, singing etc)

11:15am - 2:30pm - pick up DC2 from nursery, go home,prepare lunch while children play, have lunch, DC2 has 'quiet time' and DC3 sleeps. Tidy up, put washing on, sit down!

2:50pm - leave to pick up DC1 from school

3:20pm - 5:00pm - pick up DC1, go to the park/library/after school activity/playdate or any errands (e.g. haircuts, new shoes, dentist, doctor etc) or do an activity at home (e.g.craft/cooking)

5:00pm-6:45pm - prepare supper while children play, eat, tidy-up after supper, bath, pyjamas, warm milk and story (don't always get to the milk/story bit!). Parent(s) come home and I finish.

Costs tend to be slightly higher in the school holidays as we go out on 'special trips' softplay/aquarium/IMAX cinema/funfair/zoo etc

I've worked in a nursery and am now a nanny and in imo if you can possibly afford a nanny you should have one. I know this isn't a available as a choice for eveyone, but if it's comparable in cost, then I really feel the overall quality of care is higher with a (good!) nanny than it would be in a nursery.

Nannylocal - thanks for your thoughts too. Nick made an earlier point about moving from nursery to nannying - how hard did you find the transition, and what were the things that surprised you most by being either easier or harder than you expected?

And if I can ask another question...who drives the planning for the day? I mean, would I say 'I'd like you to do an out of the house activity every day - you research what's available' or would a nanny expect me to be more or less prescriptive?

Thanks to all for your contributions, it's really helpful

FWIW, DS1 (4) and DS2 (now 18 months) have a nanny. DS1 went to preschool in the mornings only last year - starts reception this month. Every day is different and flexible but they generally do a play group activity in the morning, or soft play or music group, have lunch, DS2 has a sleep and in the afternoon go to the park or a playdate, have dinner and are in the bath when I get home from work. I used to prescribe DS1's playgroups but dont any more as our nanny has a good nose for sniffing out fun things to do with the boys.

Until my youngest started nursery theis what we used to do however it was not all set in stone.
Monday baking playing at home the park playdates
Tuesday park and swimming
Wednesday morning playgroup which was a pound. Afternoon she quite often would have a nap
Thursday a music dance group at five pounds then a play date
Friday food craft at our local sure start centre free inculding lunch the afternoon park soft play libary.
We also had a season ticket to Kew gardens so quite often would ditch something to go there. Even a ride on a bus to a differant libary is an adventure.
We are so lucky in that we have a brillant childrens centre locally who run various playgroups drop in sessions as well as some a little further away who did differant things..Also live in london so loads to so . Sure start was free museums are free used to have ten pounds a week kitty some weeks would use it others did not need to touch it. She had a school aged brother as well. Always take our own food as has severe food allergies even soft play centres if they know allow it.
Now that she is in nursery as is the share child its only their ballet classes which they love parents both prepay. The eldest charge at ten gets through more keyboard lessons football and circus skills which is 11 pounds a week.
Holidays its museums we sway children the odd soft play session the libary various parks swimmimg my local pool will let me have group rates when we go with friends kew gardens the wetlands between the two families thay have passes cooking movie day at home.
I cook fresh food do their landary am free to take deliverys run errands . Indeed today i cooked the children a curry for this evening and did enough for the parents.

You can certainly dictate what happens if you like... but micromanaging is a bit of a pain... a nanny is there to help make your life easier, not harder. So with a good nanny you won't need to tell them what to do... just let them get on with it and monitor via seeing car journey logs, photos, what your child talks about.

In winter with 3 foot of snow outside, you may not want them to be doing an outside pre-planned activity... you may far prefer they spend some time playing in the snow and a lot of the time indoors keeping warm. Plans are all well and good but they need to be adaptable not set in stone.

Some nannies will need more direction than others, so the first few weeks will determine if you have a nanny who needs direction or not.

Any nanny may find it hard at first to find places to go if they do not live in the area. So if you already know of places, then suggest those places. Your nanny can then decide to visit those places, or find their own.

As 4 days a week then may be difficult to find
a share for 1 day

as op has 2 small dc then harder to find another family with one small dc or otherwise the nanny will have 4 possibly under 5

yes doable but harder to do shares when have 2 children on each family iyswim

yes costs go down with a share but the main attraction of a nanny is sole care of your children
and only yours and not dividing attention/care with more young children or you may as well use a cm
iyswim

We've had a great experience with chidminders.

Back in the old days, nannies were seen as the more professional option. But there is a new, professional breed of CMs around these days.

I would choose a proper, professional CM over a nursery or nanny any day, as you get the best of both worlds, other children for your DC to play with, and make friends with, but you still have a personal relationship with the CM that you couldn't have with a nursery.

But I think many people are not aware that there are some truly excellent CMs out there, who approach their job with the highest levels of professionalism. It's very difficult to get an outstanding rating from OFSTED for example and those who have are priceless IMO. (There's some pretty damn good ones with "good" ratings too). I worked as a nanny myself in the past, and me and the DCs had great time, sure. But it was nothing like the professional service our current CM provides.

Our CM employs assistants, who are also OFSTED registered. Between them they look after up to 6 children, all in the same age group (currently they?re 1-2). We particularly liked this as it means DS gets to spend time with the same group of children his age, and he has built up good friendships with them.

Our CM plans the week ahead, so we all know what the children will be doing - and even what they'll be eating - before the week begins. Every day she gives us a brief written report so we can see what our DCs got up to, and what they especially liked doing that day.

Typically they go out in the mornings - perhaps to one of the many parks, a city farm, the library or maybe to feed the ducks. This is very important to me as I like the idea that DS is out and about in the world, having new experiences, not cooped up in one place all the time.

They have lunch at the park, or back at the house.

In the afternoons they do activities at the house. In the few months DS has been there, he's done so much - messy play and painting, ball play, water play, learning about mini-beasts etc. She reads to them, and makes sure they have plenty of time for free play. The toys and equipment she has are fantastic.
She even has someone who comes once a week to do a special creative session with them.

Everything week is planned with child development in mind, and is related to the early years learning framework.

The friendships our little one has built up with the other children are lovely, and something which wouldn't happen if he was being taken to groups on his own and seeing different children all the time.

DS is always absolutely beaming when I pick him up, he gets so much out of his time there.

As 4 days a week then may be difficult to find
a share for 1 day

Blondes that does not make sense... as if the nanny isn't working for both families At The Same Time, then it isn't a share. It would be two separate employments.

For anyone considering a nannyshare, do look through the archives on here as over the years various issues have been discussed. It can certainly work in some peoples cases but there are additional issues to sort out - such as the nanny has to please two sets of parents who may have differing views. Days off have to be arranged such that they suit more people, so can be harder to find dates that suit all involved. Who pays for what, whose home is used for what.
One benefit of a nanny is that they work in your home... if you lose that benefit is it still worth having a nanny, it may be depending on your situation.

ahhhh i shouldnt write posts when im tired

i know what i meant and didnt explain it very well

as in the op wants a 4/5day nanny and if she did a share then the nanny would have all the children on the same day, so not getting the usual 1 to 1 care of a nanny hence why is di may as well use a cm

does that make sense :)

It's not so much the cost as the flexibility that appeals. So a nanny share would definitely bring its own issues, as Nick says. There's a potential to hook up with a friend, but I am kind of viewing that as a nice to have if it works out, but not essential to the plan.

Lowrib - your comments on CMs are interesting, as TBH, I've always thought of that option as the worst of both worlds! In that there is a small group of children (but enough other kids to share germs with!), so not so much 1-1 attention from the one adult; you still have to manage drop offs/pick ups; it's outside your home, so none of the extra bits and bobs like laundry etc; and only one carer who will get ill/want holidays. Yours does sound excellent, but given I have 2 boys of different ages, not sure how well that would pan out. And to be a bit contoversial, my SIL recently decided to be a CM, as it was the only thing she could afford to do and get her own kids looked after. She would probably not be my idea of a good CM. [But I do accept I could be biased in this respect ]

I am thinking about this choice from an 'opportunistic' point of view - ie I potentially have the right person to be a nanny, it's just weighing up the pros and cons. From conversations with friends, it's the finding of the right person that's the tricky bit. So if I have that bit, the rest is a no brainer...right?

How much do you know about the girl who is leaving nursery?

Have you got/do you know:
A cv or something showing education and work history, including childcare related qualifications/training.
Her address (I am assuming this job will be live-out, so where she lives is a factor).
Reason for her wanting to leave nursery (and has she resigned at this stage, or is she waiting to line up a job first)
How well do you get on with her... do you think you will be able to tell her what to do?

Every nanny has to start somewhere, their first nanny job can be the hardest to get. A persons life experience before that first job can help convince a potential employer... such as I would expect that many nannies have done youth work at some point (rainbows/brownies/guides, beavers/cubs/scouts, church groups, activity based youth clubs/holiday camps etc). They may also have done a lot of babysitting for local families, mostly evening care but some of it may have been daytime.

Are they reliable? Reliability is very important in nannying... parents rely on their nanny to turn up to work each day, on time - ideally a little early. You don't want someone who won't turn up as soon as the first flakes of snow fall - you want someone who will leave their home earlier if it snows and keep you informed on route if they think they won't make it on time.

You want to avoid micromanagement, so is she the sort of person to just get on with things?

They are all the things I'll be talking to her about next week, Nick...