Nanny giving bogus reference - from us!

[Violettta]

About a year ago our then nanny left. We'd had some concerns about her behaviour (e.g. leaving the children - 2 and 4 - alone in their room while she had a 'rest' in the living room and being evasive about who they'd seen during the day), but she left of her own accord (she gave notice but never turned up to serve it out). Shortly afterwards, she sent a pretty unpleasant letter to my partner - criticising everything from her attitude to her cleanliness. We figured she'd never ask for a reference after that, so she must be planning to airbrush us out of her CV.

Her replacement is leaving to go to University, so we've advertised for a new nanny and - obviously unaware of who we are - the previous nanny has applied. She's sent a copy of our CV which not only refers to her time with us, but also names us as a reference - with a bogus telephone number. So we rang up the number and spoke to someone who claimed to be my partner - although I'm fairly confident it wasn't, given that she was sat next to me at the time - and gave a glowing reference.

In the light of this, we're concerned about whether her other references were genuine (mainly mobile numbers, some of which hadn't connected when we tried to take them up before employing her). We feel we should raise this with someone - she is Ofsted registered, but since this is voluntary, even if she was unregistered by Ofsted, this wouldn't stop her taking up positions elsewhere. And it wouldn't stop her getting work on the back of these bogus references. At the same, the misrepresentation probably isn't so serious as to get police involved, and the sort of concerns we had wouldn't be so serious as to say that children were being put at serious risk.

However, we do feel that anyone employing her should be aware of our concerns - or at least should have the opportunity and information to make up their own mind.

Any suggestions what we should do? And do beware that references may not be all they seem. Research your childcarer's referees and attempt to contact them through other means (e.g. work phone numbers) if at all possible.

Posting things via e-mail to someone you've not met in person is pretty much the same as posting the information openly on the web - as you don't know whose hands it's really falling in.

So references on the web I don't include any personal contact information. The text content of the reference is there and it may give some geographic data - such as a town name. It will usually also have the Surname of the family - so they could be identified from those two bits of information, but only after a little research such as 192.com / directory inquiries. I've had one parent ask to be called "Mrs B from Camberley" for references appearing online. So that's harder to identify.

Full contact details are provided when meeting a family in person.

Sometimes parents are happy for their contact number (often a mobile these days) or an e-mail address (increasingly a Gmail address) to be given out. So yes, your landline and work e-mail rules may not be that practical these days.

However nanny agencies may do things differently. As a nanny you don't know what the agency is sending out to parents. The family I currently work for didn't get my CV... they got a nanny profile of some type instead. What exactly is on that I have no idea.

Nick would you find it weird if a prospective employer insisted on having an address and some other form of contact details apart from a mobile and generic email acct? I don't mean initially but say after you were reasonably far along on the process.

I can't think of any good reason WHY a referee wouldn't want to give these out at that stage. (Unless you didn't really want to be giving a reference for some reason I guess...)

If OFSTED is not interested in this nanny's behaviour, it certainly begs the quest "Of what use is OFSTED registration"? If I had a bad experience with a childn=minder I would report him/her to OFSTED. Does it not have the same effect with a nanny. Can the OP not at the very least let OFSTED know just what kind of nanny she was.

I once had a childminder who was due for inspection. She asked me to fill out a form for her which I could either give back to her or send directly to OFSTED. I'm sure this carried some weight in her review.

It is fraud, and criminal, rather than civil. Which means that with a criminal conviction she would be very unlikley to obtain any jobs in the future.

You should go to the police if you feel strongloy about it and you will need to be firm wiht the police. They have an obligation to take down the details, but rarely a motivation to follow up stuff like this. You can provide that motivation by (a) being firm about the crime (and it is pecuniary advantage by deception) and (b) providing them with all the evidence (and here a written rather than verbal reference is what you need - and not one obtained by deception yourself so you will need to find someone genuinely recruiting) and (c) impressing on them the fact that this is a no-brainer case for them to add to their statistics of resolved incidents. Even then it will take a little bit of pressure (repor tin person, follow up in person and by phone.

We have had to do this once - I can assure you that the impact of them having a police officer call them (usually at their current place of work) will be substantial.

Saying all of that, I would never go down this path unless the nanny had done something pretty bad - but I would phone them up and tell them that is what I am plannign to do.

Nick would you find it weird if a prospective employer insisted on having an address and some other form of contact details apart from a mobile and generic email acct? I don't mean initially but say after you were reasonably far along on the process.

No - My written references contain a physical address. So no reason why someone could not write to that address. Think I would phone the person first just to check they were happy for that to happen, though I can't see why a referee would refuse.

Squiffy - would it have fallen under the 1968 Theft Act section 16(2)c?

The cases in which a pecuniary advantage within the meaning of this section is to be regarded as obtained for a person are cases where...

(c) He is given the opportunity to earn remuneration or greater remuneration in an office or employment, or to win money by betting.

Think that was repealed by the Fraud Act 2007.   Not sure what part of Fraud Act 2007 though would now apply to this type of offence - do you know?

Is it an offence if the job hasn't been obtained?  As they haven't received wages until they start the job.   Under the 1968 Act my reading of it is that it would be an offence once they have received wages by deception.  Is that still the case in the Fraud Act 2007?

Jesus, Squiffy. Must remember never to get on your bad side. [scared smiley]

agree with squiffy, this nanny needs to be told what she is doing is wrong and tbh bloody unprofessional (and yet again fab nannys get a bad name/reputation) :(

Isn't this a form of identity theft/fraud? in which case maybe you should look at

www.actionfraud.org.uk/home

I've read here before that employers of a nanny can be sued by future employers for giving a misleadingly positive reference. I don't know if that's true. If it is, then you may be liable to be sued by someone in future?

Thank you all for your advice on this subject. I thought you might be interested in an update (and I'd be glad of the opportunity to vent a little frustration)...

So we called Ofsted. The woman on the phone was very interested and took a lot of details about the nanny's behaviour during her time with us, as well as the details of the false references. Although it took them a almost a month, they made an inspection: Ofsted don't seem able to tell me whether she (and her employers) will know that this was in response to a complaint, or a standard spot-check.

However, an Ofsted inspection of a home childcarer is only designed to check that CRB checks are up to date, qualifications are valid etc. (of course it is always possible that she'll fail on this but the report won't be published for another month). The man at Ofsted told me that the honesty and probity of the childcarer is not on their checklist and that references from previous employers are outside of what they regulate. He was sympathetic, but the bottom line is that they cannot do anything.

In the meantime, 6 weeks have passed since she (unknowingly) applied to work for us, so she may well have been employed by someone else who thinks she comes with good references.

Next stop (this morning): the local Child Protection Team. Their juridiction only covers child abuse and neglect and there is no clear evidence of this. They were sympathetic, but the bottom line is that they cannot do anything.

Next stop: the Police. They couldn't think of any grounds on which they could do something. It isn't really an identity theft because she hasn't used it to take anything from us. They suggested the Child Protection Team and the regulator and were very suprised that both had turned us away. They were sympathetic but... you guessed it... Although she took my details to discuss it with a colleague.

We have three remaining options:

1. Report her to Gumtree in the hope that she will be banned from replying to listings, which is how she's obtained her previous jobs. Even if Gumtree went ahead with this, she could just change her email address, but it might frighten her out of doing it again I suppose.
2. Call the false reference and tell her firmly not to do it again or I will report her to the police. Hopefully that would frighten both of them off doing it again.
3. Write to the person who was listed as her current employer in the CV she sent us(there's no point calling them because the number listed is a mobile and may well not be genuine). They may have thought they had a reference from us and think twice about employing her, if they still are. And they may consider it if they give her references in future.

I'm very nervous of 2 and 3 as I feel I'm inviting a brick through our window. In any case, I won't proceed with 2 and 3 until the police have had time to consider it.

In answer to earlier questions:

Yes, we have a very good paper trail (although, unfortunately, we've lost the CV she sent us when she applied to work for us originally).

What can parents do to ensure that references are honest? In future I would never accept a paper reference or mobile number. I would want an email (preferably a work email), home number and address and would seek to match these up. Always check that the referee correctly confirms the dates and the ages of the children (the false referee didn't). Always google contact details for the nanny and his/her referees. And I've also learnt some valuable lessons about acting on gut instincts where childcare is concerned.

Thanks for listening! Any further ideas most welcome!

Please read my earlier post - my understanding is that the Police don't like taking on cases like this because they aren't very exciting, so they will always try to fob you off. But am pretty sure that it isa criminal offence under section 16 of the Theft Act 1968 (which to my knowledge has never been repealed or revised with regard to S16). But I could be wrong - did you specifically ask the police if the Theft Act applied?

here is a summary of what that section means in practice.

If you wanted to take it further then I would either take the attached info down to the police station, or put a call into a criminal solicitor for advice.

Actually, ignore that last post - Fraud Act overrides Theft Act now, so may have affected this section.... will investigate....

Phew. still applies, but now has different name: fraud by false representation: See below.

Fraud by false representation (Section 2)

The elements of the offence are that the Defendant:

made a false representation dishonestly knowing that the representation was or might be untrue or misleading with intent to make a gain for himself or another, to cause loss to another or to expose another to risk of loss. The offence is entirely offender focused. It is complete as soon as the Defendant makes a false representation, provided that it is made with the necessary dishonest intent. It differs from the deception offences in that it is immaterial whether or not any one is cognisant of the representation, deceived or any property actually gained or lost.

Blonds it's like Panorama! I love your suggestions!

OP could you track her down, either by going to the address on the CV or finding out from other nannies where she is working and go and visit her new family and explain the situation? Tell them your concerns and that you did not supply a reference (being careful not to slander etc.)

If OFSTED etc can't do anything then I think ringing the fake refernce is a good idea. It might put them off doing it again if they realise they can be caught out.

Re trying to get good refs, I ask for ref details to be work contact details (headed paper always good) and can then have a look on the company website etc to check the referee is who they say they are. I then will call a work phone not a private number for the verbal reference? nothing?s foolproof, but it does make deception a little harder. Due to cost of having a nanny, most have been employed by people in professional capacities who are easily in a position to supply this. I?ve not had a nanny object to me asking for this ? I think genuine people understand you want to ensure the safety/wellbeing of your children. I only ask for this after interview etc, when I?m basically in a position of being ready to employ, providing all refs check out, so it?s not like the employer is putting this info in public domain. I also try and make sure the first period there is someone around so I can see how this is happening (e.g. my last nanny started while I was one a couple weeks medical leave post an operation so I was at home, but not fit to look after toddlers, my new nanny will be starting while my in-laws are on a 1 month visit ? actually I feel a little sorry for anyone finding the ropes with my FIL in situ, but it really can?t be helped! )

These days I will also admit to having a quick nosey on facebook (always amazed at non-locked down profiles), and have terminated discussion at an early stage based on some profiles/pictures etc there Judgey yes, and I was no saint at 20, but then I wouldn?t want my 20 year old self looking after my kids either!

See I would have problems with the headed paper ref - I've worked for freelancers, NHS surgeons (who probably wouldn't use NHS paper and have since moved on!) and several people who don't work where they did 5 years ago. Doesn't mean my references aren't valid, it just means people move around so do I ask for a new ref every time?

I have professional emails for a few, but one is their own company, and the nursery I worked in has since closed down so that's uncheckable.

My last employer I never knew even when I was working for her which office in which European city she was in so I've always given her blackberry number (professional email address though).

I'm guessing on that basis you wouldn't hire me!

No necesarily. For what it's worth I pretty much disregard written refs if just provided and printed out (very easy to just mock up yourself) I always want to contact the person, so yes I would need their current details to do that. NHS surgeons should be pretty easy to validate they are who they say they are, and an email from [email protected] would satisfy me on that, re your employer who owns their own company, I would go to Company House and check they are who they say they are etc, and I'd hope you could give me the current details of your manager from your nurery time so I could check that too - I have no issues in doing due dilligence on this, given I will be giving sole care of my children to the nanny, and my youngest is still to young to talk

Eek I have no idea about the manager from the nursery! I know her name and that's about it....

I only spent 3 months there in 2005 anyway so I doubt anyone's checked it for a while anyway. I only know they've closed because an agency tried and told me they'd handed in their OFSTED registration.

lovely you updated - always nice to know what happened

:( ofsted didnt seem bothered - did you call michel morton and complain?

again some of my references date back 15+year ago and yes some families have moved - i have kept in touch with most of them through xmas cards etc - so you may not like me

i still think you should write to her employers and see if they had actually spoken to you - do you remember giving verbal refernces/

again the police should do something, it is fraud pretending to be someone else and obtaining a job out of it

Blondes ? to be honest I wouldn?t bother with 15 year olds refs anyway (I?m sure you?ve learnt stuff since then!) ? would only generally look at last two jobs, or if you?d been in your last role 5+ years, then one work and one character ref, which is why I?ve not so far had a problem getting them in the format I?m comfy with. I'm not that hard to please honest!

current job 4+yrs, last job 5yrs, ex ex job 4.5yrs so i would do then

did you speak to morton micheal?