How do I convince DH we need .....

[tjtheminx]

I am 32 wks on number 2. We live thousands of miles from family (in USA) and have only been here 18 months so although we have friends none are super close.

I work FT as does DH. We have one DS 3. I do all the housework, shopping, cleaning, washing, the vast majority of the childcare when not at work. DH does think he helps but realistically he needs a lot of support and encouragement.

DH seems to think he can take over all the housework and childcare of DS around the birth of DS2 in a few weeks.
I know it won't work.
First, he is entirely deluded as to how much housework there actually is. I am continually asking for a cleaner but he doesn't see the need ( i.e. he doesn't do any cleaning so how would he know)
Second, he will try his best for 24 maybe 48 hours and then will think his job is done. I am likely to be discharged from hosp within 24 hours if birth is uncomplicated and I know DH will assume this means normal service is restored.
Third, I had a horrible experience after the birth of DS1 when I ended up in doing everything myself without help. But I don't fancy doing that again, I was very upset and resentful very quickly.And very, very tired.

I don't want to be mean about DH; he is the typical product of the Irish Mammy and , bless him, thinks if he empties the dishwasher once a week he is doing me an enormous favour. I am part of the problem as I am a perfectionist and often he doesn't do a job a second time because I have not been happy with it.

Anyhow, to the point, there is a doula service in this area, not just for the birth but in the weeks after the birth. They will help with BF, baby, siblings, shopping, cooking, cleaning etc. To be honest, it sounds fantastic. They cost $28 an hour and I was thinking 4 hours a week would be reasonable for maybe 3/4 weeks post birth.

I need some strategies to convince DH that this is a good idea.He really does not get the concept of my being tired and needing to spend all the time with the new baby [it's an uphill battle] He is also a complete workaholic and I know he won't take any leave himself and is likely to go back to work the day after the birth ( if not the day of...)

Otherwise I see myself completely exhausted and crabby trying to keep everything going for the meagre 6 weeks maternity leave I am going to get.

Any tips?
Thanks

Just let him read your post!
You don't need his consent anyway - jeezo, you are working, he is working and you have kids? Who wouldn't need help?
Seems perfectly reasonable to get in as much help as you can possibly manage.

6 wks leave! You poor thing! Is that standard in the States? I could still barely sit down by that stage with ds.

Just book her

you don't need to justify it ... if i hadn't have had loads of help after the birth of DC2 i would have totally done this

So you both work FT but you do all the housework?

And he thinks he helps, but doesn't really?

I think your best bet is to stop doing all the housework, as soon as possible.

Do half. And then stop.

Bloody hell, four hours a week? That sounds like a tiny amount.

Six weeks maternity leave. God almighty.

I can't believe you have already HAD one baby and are now facing this attitude from your dh. The only area I sympathise with him at all on is the one where you redo everything he does - frankly that's a bit shit. But i do see what you mean - if you just go ahead and book the doula, he will be upset because he's got this image of himself doing it all, and you will be 'undermining' it, and he may just stop doing even the tiny amount he IS doing.

The only thing I can possibly suggest is that you open as frank a conversation as you can manage about you still being worried about the period around the birth, and that together you write a list of the chores you actually do (including the thinking ones, and all the waking at night). Then you can tick off the ones a doula can do, and ask him to look honestly at the remaining vast list, and say whether he really feels that as a full-time worker he is going to be up for all that.

Does he have a sister who has had a second baby and has had help from his mother, preferably lavish help?? because maybe she could bend his ear a bit.

By the way, if I were you I would try to get out of the habit of regarding anything he does round the house as 'help'. He lives there too, doesn't he?

WOW! I would never let my DH get away with that! He is the product of a career housewife, and it took fairly extensive training to bring him round to the idea that whilst he is out all day working as a lawyer, I am also out all day working as a lawyer, and therefore there is really no reason whatsoever for me washing his socks in my limited free time! He has now grasped it however, and we have a great arrangement, whereby some jobs are mine and some are his. I do the shopping and cooking, but he does the laundry and cleans up after I have cooked dinner. Our cleaner does the ironing and the cleaning. I honestly don't view this as having anything less than what any modern working woman is entitled to in a husband! If you don't make him pull his weight, then you will spend the rest of your life bringing up his children, keeping his house and working full time!!!! That is positively Victorian. I recommend getting a cleaner. Ours charges £40 to clean our whole house and do our ironing once a week. it is the best money we spend.

Thanks

I knew I'd get pushback about my doing all the housework and making out that he doesn't do any! Seriously our household isn't that Victorian.... and he does try to do his bit, but yeah, he's still in training and I am completely anal.

He doesn't have a sister and his mother is wealthy and had nursery nurses bring him up until he was old enough to go to boarding school ( slight exaggeration- but I won't go into it now)Now, their household was and still is practically Victorian. I think I've done quite well to get him this far.

We, on the other hand, are not wealthy. Here's where I'm really going to get a kicking.....
When we arrived in the US my visa was fecked up so I couldn't get a bank account. So all our money goes into his account. I pay direct from my wage packet to my son's daycare, a mortgage here and a mortgage in Ireland. ( works out easier the way I am paid)
So I could just go ahead and book it but he likes to do the household budget and I know he would think this was a luxury not a neccessity.

The advice I really need is how to get him to think this is neccessary rather than a luxury item
My gripes about doing all the work aside, I will continue to train him.Regardless of how equal the work is, it's not going to happen in 8 weeks.

Oh yeah,

and don't remind me about the 6 weeks leave. That's another thread altogether.

You can't make him see it as an essential. ALl you can do is tell him that for you it is an essential. If he doesn't like it, well, tough, You NEED HELP to get through those early weeks or you will lose it!

I only have one child but I have seen a lot of women have two children and I'd say if there is any way at all you can continue the input (perhaps changing to a cleaner rather than a doula) for maybe the first year, it could really prevent divorce make things a lot better for everyone.

tjtheminx: my sympathies (and empathy!) about the leave (I'm 31wks pg in the US too - near NYC - where are you? [nosey emoticon]).
As to how to get him to see it as a necessity, can I suggest DEFINITELY doing the list of chores, cos I think he needs to see it, and maybe also working out what it would cost for all the laundry to go to a dry cleaner's, all the food to be delivered (eg healthy ready meals from fresh direct, etc) and a cleaner to come in every day for an hour or so (mine charges $20 an hour here) - and THEN present him with "Here's what it will cost if the work goes out to x people. And here's what it will cost for a postnatal doula. Either way, I will not be doing the work and darling, frankly I'd rather you were supporting me in those weeks, and spending lots of time with DC1, than running yourself ragged doing all these chores as well. I think we're going to need more help than you've forseen, and I don't want to be at the point of collapse and exhaustion and PND when I go back to work..."

Or something like that? Might not work (you know your DH, I don't!) but it's the kind of thing that would convince me. Show him he's getting a great deal with the postnatal doula service, basically, rather than all the other services you WILL end up using if you don't get them. If you give him a choice between spending a lot of money and a bit less.... maybe? Seems to me that you have to make it clear that you WILL be outsourcing housework, one way or the other.

Good plan blackcurrants. Will see how that goes...
I'm in CT.... not too far from you?

ahh, not too far by US standards, no! I'm in Hudson County, NJ - I commute into Manhattan once or twice a week and mumsnet work from home the rest of the time. Isn't it all so different, here? I've lived here 5 years and not felt homesick till I got pg! I'm still getting to grips with the health stuff - we just worked out what it will cost to put the LO on my health insurance, and DH said, grimly, "We are going home soon." Yeah... only I moved here for my job, and there's hardly any back home... oh well!
Sorry for the tangent.

I just had a thought - perhaps present this to your DH as a necessity because of how much more work it will be having a newborn AND a little child at home? He might think "oh, she copes so well anyway" and so showing how this is a special/different circumstance might demonstrate that it therefore requires more help than you got last time (AND ongoing help! the cleaner idea's a damn good one - mine comes for 3 hours once a fortnight and for $60 I swear she's saved our marriage. DH is wonderful but quite unable to clean a bathroom without prompting, which was driving me nuts!).

"The advice I really need is how to get him to think this is neccessary rather than a luxury item"

Seriously, I think the only way you will convince him of this is if you stop doing all of the housework. You said yourself that he doesn't see the need because he doesn't ever do any of the work.

If you're a domestic perfectionist (I am not ) I can see it would be hard to let things slide for a while... but I think you need to in order to show him how much there really is to do!

and then say, This is what it will be like when I'm recovering from childbirth/spending the whole time breastefeeding etc?

And a Mumsnet campaign for better maternity rights in the US?

Or should we just butt out from the richest country in the world that has only just given healthcare to cancer patients?

Just do it??? Why does he need to approve?

Or, as other posters say, do no housework for three days, just to give him a taster of what chaos will ensue (or even, just one day in this house of not tidying etc. and all hell would break loose!)

It is an entirely reasonable thing to arrange, extremely sensible and will alleviate your stress or worry to a great extent.

Can I suggest a slightly softer way than what anonymousbird and others have suggested. Adults learn best through doing, right? So why don't you say to him: "You think you can do this by yourself; I'd love for that to be the case but I'm frankly worried that you won't be able to manage and then I'm left to pick up the shit [I'd try to find an ego-stroking way of saying this, tbh, eg alluding to his Very Demanding Job]. So I think we ought to have a trial run next week: I'll write down for you all the tasks that need to happen and give you an indication of the standards. I'll include both the stuff we have to do today and the extra stuff that we'll have to do when the baby comes. You give it a go and see if you can manage next week. Then we can talk about the tradeoff of paying for some external help vs trying to go it alone. And of course we should see where we might claw back a bit of the cash to cover the costs."

Irish mammies have a huge amount to answer for! Do English mothers spoil their sons as much? My husband is being a lot more help now that I'm in the late stages of pregnancy, but he's also guilty of not realising how much housework there is.

I'd just book someone and tell him. Don't turn it into a request, you're an independent woman who can make her own decisions! 4 hours a week for someone who is so far from a support network is entirely reasonable.

If he's being a total pain in the ass about it, make a list of what you do on a daily/weekly basis - including minutiae like cleaning the basin properly after he shaves, washing and folding clothes etc etc and present it to him saying that you will be unable & unwilling to do any of this for the duration of your maternity leave.

how about you ask dh, mil, sil, parents, friends etc if they would buy you an hour or 4 of doula service as a baby gift? surely more useful to you than another baby outfit?

Sorry, haven't been on mn for a few days.

All sensible suggestions anonymousbird, slhilly and trillian.. I think you are all right, I need to get over myself and cut back on the housework in the next few weeks, give him a list and let him get on with it.
Either he will cope fantastically or I'll have a cleaner within the week!
homebirthmummy fantastic idea, I will definitely ask

nonnomum there are no maternity rights in the US. IMO it's all a con to make you so worried about your job and career prospects that you are forced back after a ridiculously short period of time. I am hoping to stretch mine out to 12 weeks but unfortunately my contract changes 6/8 weeks after my due date so once that happens I have no right to time off.

I will be paid for 6 weeks and no more. When I have mentioned to my supervisor I think it's barbaric to have to return to work after 6 weeks she stares at me in disbelief. "But you won't be paid if you take any longer" When I mention that money is not the issue here, it's the wellbeing of a tiny baby I am met with a blank expression. Money is everything in this country. Correct blackcurrants?

If I don't go back to work when my contract changes I lose my job. End of story. And as blackcurrants said, no job prospects on the other side of the pond either at the moment.

Coincindentally nonnomum I am a cancer doctor - now you are all going to think I am a complete eejit but believe me I am paid crap!!( I have the "privilege" of working here!)-. Unfortunately the new health care bill is only a bill and a lot of what has been released to the press is propaganda.
Cancer patients here are not entitled to healthcare any more than they were before the bill was passed. Which is a lot more depressing prospect than my lack of a cleaner.

Money is indeed the prime mover here. What I never noticed from outside the country is just how powerful corporations are. They give you health insurance. So it's your company who, basically, decides if you can see a doctor.
Case in point: DH is a teacher and I work for a uni. My employer negotiates with a health insurance corporation for thousands of people, hence gets (and offers) a better deal than DH's employer. We both have health insurance with the same company, but negotiated through our relative employer. I get better benefits for less money than DH because I work, in effect, for a bigger company.. SO because he works for a smaller company it costs him more to go to his GP We found out this week that to add the coming baby as a dependent on HIS health insurance plan (so the LO can get it's vaccinations and generally see a doctor) would cost over twice as much as it would to add onto MY insurance plan. And yet - the plans are with the same health insurance company. . . . Bonkers or what?
(sorry, massive tangent!)

I enquired about taking an unpaid leave till xmas, just to spend 6 months with the baby. The money would have been tight on just DH's salary but we could have maybe managed it. Then we factored in adding me AND the baby to DH's health insurance - and we couldn't afford it any more. So the baby's due on July 24th and, come hell or high water, I MUST be in a meeting and thereafter back at work on Aug 31st.... the baby will be too young for me to even leave him or her at the daycare centre we've chose . We'll have to find an interim babysitter/nanny for a couple of weeks, I think. It's a crazy system that views people as cogs, all in the service of the almight corporation.

It's definitely not about the health and wellbeing of the baby or mother, that's for sure. It's about money: we should all be wiling wage slaves at all times, and then they should be free to chuck us away if/when we get ill or something goes wrong for us.

GAH!

sorry for the tangential rant on your post, tjtheminx - I just think sometimes people take the NHS for granted, and it's handy to see it from the other side of the pond sometimes.

good luck tjtheminx. I suggest carrying round a pad / blackberry and as you do each chore write it in the list. Then after a week show him.

Or let it slide......it sounds like that would be V hard for you but probably best to have that meltdown BEFORE the baby rather than after.

'Babyproofing your marriage' is a great book if you have time to read it. Has a section on moving from 1 to 2 children. It really helped us avoid pitfalls of who does what / house keeping.

I hear you blackcurrants. Unless I give birth 3 weeks early I will lose the daycare place ( that DS1 attends ) Bonkers! And the change of contract means a change in health insurance too.

Will have to start eating vindaloos in 100 degree heat at the beginning of July!

We have completely gone off topic now. Have you ever noticed the really ill looking people who continue to work here who you would NEVER see at work in the UK/Ireland. I'm sure they have to stay working to keep their health insurance.It's barbaric.

Anyhow, zombieplan due to my visa craziness I don't have good enough credit for a blackberry yet!! Therefore tis paper all the way.
I will get a copy of the book though.

Need to have a good chat with DH and sort this out now rather than when I am ready for a meltdown.

I don;t know much about doulas, but getting a cleaner was one of the best things we did for the harmony of our household: not that DP is particularly bad at doing chores etc, but the thing he just didn't really notice the dirt/dust, etc.
This is the problem with stopping doing the housework: it will annoy you long before he even notices!
The chores list is a good idea: the thing is that even with a cleaner or doula there will be still be chores that need doing, and he will still need to help you!
Good luck!

I would just organise a cleaner and tell your OH - maybe put it that "I know you want to get back to work asap and I'll need to be back to work soon and this is the only way that's happening"! You're going to have a tough time getting back to work so quick, so help around the house will be a necessity, not a luxury.

And start him looking after your DS now, not when the baby arrives. You need to be able to take thing easier to prepare for birth - and know that he'll have a better idea of what needs doing after the birth too.