Can someone talk to me about Keillands Forceps please?

[Hulla]

DD was delivered by Keillands last year which I found very traumatic. I suffered a tear which was only partially repaired and now suffer problems because of this (I am having ongoing treatment).

I had a debrief with a consultant at the hospital last month. He told me that the person who delivered dd was training (but had used Keillands before) and was under the supervision of a senior registrar.

He also mentioned that, despite being taken to theatre for dd to be rotated and delivered she was born OP. He says this means that either:

a. They got it wrong and she wasn't OP to start with

b. The doctor only rotated dd's head and not her whole body so that between contractions dd turned her head back and they delivered her "face to pubes" (his words).

He thinks my notes indicate it was the latter.

So I came away from the debrief feeling like I knew a bit more and it helped but now I can't stop thinking about this part of the story. If someone was improving their Keilland's technique on me under the supervision of a more senior doctor, should I have been made aware of that? Should I have been asked if that was ok?

And if they only rotated dd's neck and not her whole body is that not really risky? It just sounds so dangerous to me. I keep thinking about that thread on her a few weeks ago with the link to the DM article (I won't relink - it was pretty distressing).

DD is fine by the way but I have this sense of panic that she maybe came really close to not being ok.

Does anyone know enough about Keillands to help me make sense of this please? The consultant did say I could go back and speak to him but I think if I ask him the same questions I may not get completely honest answers.

Hulla Am I allowed to offer some un-mumsnet hugs here, or shall I go to fb to do it?

I really hope this move will be the fresh start you and DH need. Am I right in thinking you'll be closer to the dr that ineedacoffee recommended above? Maybe that will be something to pursue in the future when you feel ready for it.

Their response to your complaint obviously has not achieved what you hoped it would. I think if and when you want to follow this up with them, you need to think carefully about what you want to achieve from your complaint, whether this can be realistically achieved and if so what is the best way to try and get the response you need from them.

Sorry hope this isn't too abrupt, have to run away as DD has just arrived to help me type!

will take hugs anywhere I can get them!

Yes, I will be nearer to that dr and someone else has mentioned getting a referral there from my new gp.

I also think you've hit the nail on the head. The response hasn't given me what I wanted. I want them to say they were wrong and to sound as if they really are sorry. It's my issue. I'm never going to get that from them. I am so angry that they have left me like this and don't seem to give a rats ass.

The woman I spoke to yesterday said I probably wouldn't get a detailed prognosis from anyone working for the trust because they'll be terrified of being sued.

Perhaps seeing another doctor will help if they can explain to me how my condition is likely to progress and how I can manage it.

I also need to make my peace with the no-more-vaginal-births thing. That's really killing me at the moment but I canlt speak to anyone about that in RL because they usually say "you're not even having sex so don't worry about it".

Thanks though snail, I think I'm not going to bother replying. It would probably only be to argue - they aren't going to help me.

Hulla, I've come back to try and clarify what I was trying to say earlier as I'm worried I didn't come across right and sounded insensitive and unsympathetic. I've been sat here for about half an hour now but have just deleted my response as its just not coming across right, so maybe I'll try again later.

I don't think you should make a decision yet about whether to reply or not, or whether to follow this up with them in a different way. Give yourself time to digest what they've said first. I'm struck by the fact that at the start of this thread you were saying that you came away from your debrief feeling it had helped, but now you feel as though they don't care about what happenned to you. I wonder if you do want to follow up some of the points from your complaint, you might be better off doing it in person with the consultant rather than through a formal letter. Anything they write down is going to be carefully composed to minimise the chance of it being used against them if you decide to sue, whereas you are more likely to get a real human response by talking to them in person.

Of course you may decide that your energy is better used trying to deal with this in other ways and that you'd rather not have anymore contact with them at all.

Am pretty at people's response to your feelings about the "no-more-vaginal-births thing". What a stupid thing for people to say, I'm sure that will only make you feel worse.

No gs, I didn't take it that way. You're right, face to face I might get a bit more of a response but I don't think they will answer the tricky questions that the debrief raised. I can't go back and see them, it's too hard andi don't trust them.

I hate that avoiding legal action comes before giving a patient answers but I understand that too. They haven't answered all of the questions in my complaint but that's probably not a mistake on their part.

I just need to find another way to get over this. I will leave this now. Legal action is more than I can cope with. I don't want this hanging over me for years and that's all that would do. I wouldn't get any more from the hospital.

Thanks everyone for your support and coming back to post here. I won't come back to this thread anymore.

Looking forward to hearing you BAs and finding out what you all have

OMG, I have read this and am [shocked]

Sorry Hulla that you had to go through this. Thank God that your dd is okay.

There was an article in some UK newspaper beginning of this year about Kielland's forceps. I read it and it was horrific, I dare not link it because I have cried over it a few times.

I hope all will go well with your move and you will get the chance to start afresh.

I agree with DoomBar. I think you should see a personal injury / medical negligence lawyer. They work on a no-win no-fee basis so it would not cost you anything.

As the claim progressed you would get to see other specilaists so they could give thier opinion.

It also sends out a very loud message to the hospital that your care 9or lack of) was totally unacceptable. It costs the hospital nothing to send you an email so that doesn't make them improve their practise - legal claims cost them money and that's what they do sit up and pay attention to.

It would also give you some (hate the term) 'closure'.

best wishes

hi.... i have stumbled upon this thread and website... i also had forceps used, althoug they were nevilles barnes, or something like that... i have also been left with urine incontinence at age 30... 5 months after the birth i am still seeing a uro-gynae, and specialist physio with not alot of results... i suppose i will have surgery next year to try to correct it, but the surgery doesn't sound so great either, and only lasts for a number of years... then what.... i have been so depressed about it but am now getting used to it.... i haven't met anyone who has suffered with anything similar, so this thread makes me feel less alone knowing there are other women who have been let down by their doctors, their bodies, mother nature etc.... i feel so cheated... i was convinved into trying a VBAC after a terribly traumatic long labour with my first child which resulted in an emergency c-section..... if only i had of gone with an elective c-section i am 99.9% sure i would not be in the position i am in now, with my life and relationships severely affected....

i was convinced that our bodies are designed to give birth, yadda yadda yadda.... well mine apparently wasn't, and now i have ruined my insides with my little boy being ripped out of me....

sorry i am just so angry that i went thru with it and didn't go with my gut and have the elective c-section... all those supportive midwives who were there for me at the time and pumping me full of confidence are not living with weeing your pants on a daily basis....

i wish you luck on your recovery... if anyone can give me any good stories of recovering from severe stress incontinence i could use the hope...

Hi golfgirl - so sorry to hear you are battling this too. I found my symptoms (mostly urge incontinence) did improve by about 6 months though I continued seeing the physio until 10 months post birth and saw uro-gynae at 6 months with an open return if it didn't settle.

I am currently 38 weeks pregnant with #2 and an elective booked next week. I am finding it hard to manage and have stress incontinence and some urge again. I am waiting to see how things will be after a couple of months though I am not planning any more children partly for my health longterm.

It sounds like you are getting support- what do the medics say for the longterm? Are they saying surgery is essential for you next year or advising you to wait? Stress incontinence is different to urge so I wasn't at the point of discussing surgery - urge is more the nerves and muscles suddenly convulsing thinking they need to empty immediately rather than a constant leak that might be helped by surgical support.

It can be so isolating I know, I often find myself buying tena pads in tescos next to someone with at least twice my years. I am 35. I am quite open about it because I can't be bothered to be embarressed - and I have found a few other mums tell me 1:1 that they also have ongoing continence issues that they are not seeing anyone about - just using pads and hoping it'll go away.

I would suggest asking for some counselling support too, or to see the maternity psychologist at your hospital. Some of these services are available up to 6 months postnatally, though I got the physio to take me on after that it was clearly birth related. You are understandably angry and feel misled over the vbac/elcs choices, and understandably perhaps also angry at yourself for not going with your gut?(though you had good reasons given to you for your vbac choice)

I think a twofold approach would be good - someone to talk to who can help you manage the huge emotional side of incontinence at such a young age, and the regrets of choices made. And then the continuing work with uro-gynae etc to do all possible to improve symptoms and manage this physically longterm. I tended to find my emotional and physcial health were quite intertwined - especially with my bladder. You know how you need to pee sometimes if you are nervous?

I found my symptoms worsening again at 5 months postbirth and was soo upset. I saw the consultant, urogynae, who simply said that bladders did that sometimes, went through a bad patch and then went ok again. That reassurance was enough to calm me and in a few weeks I was back to seeing improvement. So for me the psychological side plays directly into my phsyical management of the issue.

Sorry - long rambling post! Hope it helps a little to not feel alone.

Golfgirl, I am so sorry you are suffering like this. You sound really upset and scared. There are options for repair if the physio doesn't work.

There is a thread for women damaged in childbirth and some of the posters had bladder problems so it migh be worth reading the thread for some positive outcomes (though the thread includes a range of birth injuries and not all have had resolution so far).

childbirth injuries thread part 2

I escaped with my bladder in tact so far but my surgeon expects the damage to my nerves will mean urinary incontinence will be a future problem. I am on a waiting list for an implant from Interstim - this can help urinary incontinence too so might be worth reading up on and discussing with your gynae?

You'll get lots of support on here, join the other thread and we can have a chat. x

ps lovethesea hope all goes well next week. I'll be looking out for news!

Last small update from me. I have started legal proceedings. I only wish I'd been able to call and tell them myself < bitter>

We've moved house so had to stop psychosexual therapy which I am really worried about. We had another row about sex with dh complaining that we'd have to wait months to see a therapist here and it's already been 17 months (as though time really does heal all wounds). So, last night I just had some wine & made myself pretend I was fine and have sex. It was ok but I felt horrible playing a role and I'm sore today. Life had to get back to normal so if this is what it takes to make my marriage feel normal then I'll have to just get on with it. My way was taking too long & I honestly couldn't fight with dh about sex (or lack of it) again.

Lastly my symptoms are getting worse so I hope my appointment for SNS comes through soon. I have transferred my care so I never have to go back to the hospital where dd was born.

Hello all

So sorry to read of all these experiences.

I had ds by Kielland's forceps six months ago. I have been lucky in that the side effects haven't been horrific, though I have had sex only once and it was horrendous, like you say Hulla.. something I did because I felt I had to and like playing a role, was also sore after it. I have a lot of pelvic pain and numbness.

My boy's apgar was 6 then 9 too.. but he didn't cry for a minute and I will never forget it.

I have stopped thinking about it that much but guess I will have to revisit if I want to have another baby

Just wanted to say hello.

Oh Hulla

Good luck with the lawyers and the SNS and the sex-starved hubbies (mine is one of those too as some of the traumatic birth/new baby issues appear to have stirred back up some probs I've always had due to a sex attack from when I was a kid), chin up and take care x

Hulla - I'm glad you have a new house and new hospital, but so sorry you are still having to fight so hard for decent care and treatment. I hope the legal action is calm and effective. Is there any way your new GP could chase the psychosexual counselling for you as a priority? I can imagine it is putting huge stress on you and your marriage and that surely must be a medical concern with regards to your mental health?

I know here in Glasgow there is a large NHS sexual health clinic (Sandyford) that takes self-referrals and offers counselling as well as all the normal STD tests and help. Perhaps where you live there might be a service like that which wouldn't need to wait on a GP or other gatekeeper?

I'll be posting about my birth on the support thread for those of us having an elcs after traumatic births So hope to have a positive tale to tell but I will be honest whatever!

thank you for your replies and support... i can't reply properly right now but just wanted to say i think it is going to help just being able to chat about it like this.... i have gone to the other thread too, so thanks for the link...

i am better position mentally than i was a few months ago, which helps... being depressed about it only makes it so much darker...

i am definitely going to end up having a surgery to fix things, but have been told to wait 12 months until after the birth, just to give my body the best possible chance to recover.... i am so worried the surgery is only temporary and in a few years i will be back to square 1... i only hope they come up with a better cure in the future...

got to go as its getting late for me (im in australia) and need to get to bed, i have a 4.5 month old so sleep is sacred!!

thank you again i can't adequately describe how much i appreciate it...