How do you know if your baby is breech?

[needmoreenergy]

My second baby is due in May 2010. My first baby was breech until very very shortly before delivery. She was 14 days late and I was induced and had an emergency csection after 14 hours failed induction labour.

Both of my scans (dating / nuchal at 12 weeks and growth at 20 weeks) were normal apparently but no comment about the position the baby was lying in.

For various reasons I won't bore this thread with I am not so keen on having loads of midwife appointments, and I am now about 28 weeks.
If I didnt see a midwife / doctor again until EDD how do I / they (assuming I give birth in a hospital) find out if the baby was breech?
Any chance I could just have a home birth and hope the baby is not breech or is facing downwards and do everything normally this time (you can see my VBAC fantasies coming into this thread!!)

This is not really about VBAC (although I suppose reluctantly it is relevant. More a question about whether I can find out myself whether my baby is facing the right way to allow for a (more likely to be successful) birth. If I don't have any more scans is there any other way to find out, and presumably if the placenta was wrapped around the baby in a dangerous way or was somewhere which might threaten a natural birth they would have told me that at my 20 week scan right?

hmmm - i think a breech presentation is quite risky/tricky because so many MWs don't do them anymore but it isn't impossible

My DD was breech until 37 weeks and i was told i would have to have a section ... hospital policy.

i really think you should consider a presentation scan

the way the baby lies at 20 weeks is no indication of how it will lie at 38 weeks - DD was transverse at 20 weeks and breech until 37 weeks

well, you could have a scan OR you could do like me:
have lots of midwife fumblings around with your bump,with no fecking IDEA that baby was breech
have lots more midwife fumblings around with your bump, still no fecking idea that baby was breech
get induced
get induced again cos that one didnt work
labour till you are 10cms dilated
see poo coming out of your vagina
get knocked out with a general anasthetic
have c section
told after recovery from general anasthtic that you baby was breech....

The end.

sunburntats lol
that sounds a bit like my first baby... and explains a bit why I am in denial / fantasy land about how baby number 2 might be born (namely me staying at home without any "medical" intervention and it all happening naturally and happily - but that was how I hoped number 1 might arrive before she did)...
so if i decide to grow up and face facts how do i get a presentation scan? do I have to ask for one or will they tell me i need one as my first baby was c-section?
how much pro active contact with my midwife (in order to get a presentation scan whatever that is) should i have to check out whether baby 2 is breech? (if that is the only way of doing it)

I think a scan is the only sure way too. DS1 was breach and like with the previous post they only realised when he pooed, but luckily for me that was much earlier in my labour than the previous post. In the week before birth I had seen a midwife, my GP & a consultant, none of whom spotted the problem, and when I was in labour it was only a scan which confirmed it.

You can't tell for sure on your own.
Even a midwife can't always tell by feeling (pal[pation) as the buttocks can feel like a head.
In my experience breech bumps have a particular shape (poke out more near the top than the bottom).
There is info here that might help you tell babies position
www.spinningbabies.com/baby-positions/breech-bottoms-up/telling-if-babys-breech
Babies often move position after 20 week scan but are usually head down by about 32 weeks./
Some midwives will do breech births at home, but it depends on their level of experience and confidence and what type of breech it is (frank breech with feet up by babies ears ios best, footling breech with feet coming first, is worst, as the cord can slip down past the baby and get compressed.
There's no data showing that only having had a breech in the past increases your risk of a future breech.
More useful info here-

www.aims.org.uk/Journal/Vol10No3/handOffbreech.htm

Selina

you can ask for a presentation scan when you arrive at the hospital in labour - that is what i was advised to do, as DD was all over the show

why don't you speak to your MW and explain your issues and she could arrange a scan at 36 weeks so if your baby is breech you could try an ECV if you wanted to try to turn your baby head down

this isn't without risks (early labour being one which is why they won't do it earlier than 37 weeks)

Can you even have a VBAC at home? I would definitely ask for a scan, like some others here all the MWs and GPs missed the fact that my dd2 was breech and I ended up with an EMCS. Why are you so against seeing midwives, may I ask?

Not against seeing midwives or against midwives as such. Just sometimes wonder whether things might have been different if I had not had to be induced last time thats all. And if the fact that I had an emergency c section last time means I have to go into hospital this time then so be it, I guess it is these facts which i need to know sooner rather than later

DD1 was born as a breech baby at home with IMs. We looked into (a lot!), and found IMs within range that had a lot of breech experience and who could take us on at 36 weeks. The NHS version was successful ECV or a CS - we opted for plan C... DD arrived naturally and happily (all 9lb 12 of her) with no medical intervention - although I gained a lot of reassurance from having 2 MWs I knew and trusted keeping an eye to make sure things happened as planned.

If you had placenta previa (where the placenta is over or very close to the cervix) then they should have told you at the 20 week scan as they would want to check whether it had moved before delivery. The placenta usually moves up as the uterus stretches, so if it wasn't near the cervix at 20 weeks its very unlikely to be so now (or they would do more checks on all women).

The only way to tell which way up baby is for sure is to have a scan. Some PCTs do seem to like women to have a positional scan before a HB but many do not. Have you told your MW that you intend to have a HB? If you stay at home, will you be calling them when you go into labour? You can decide at the last moment, but it makes life much easier for the MWs if they can do some planning - make sure there's a HB kit ready, type up directions for MWs that might be from further away, get you fitted into the on-call rota etc.

You can have a HB without having a scan, but I am concerned that you don't seem to be getting any regular ante-natal checks. Please look after the pair of you...

Yes - you can have a VBAC at home, although your PCTs guidelines may well be to recommend against this. They may also recommend CFM and various other things. The key word in all of these is recommendation. If you haven't seen the homebirth site there's some info on VBACs here.

if you are going for a VBAC and a home VBAC at that, i believe it would be foolhardy to not have any MW checks and scans.. yor MW needs to be sure the baby is not just breech, but the type of breech presentation that can be safely delivered.. some breech presentations are much more risky than others..

you cna go for a home VBAC, but withouth your care givers being 100 % sure of the presentation,m you are taking a big risk and i understand how important VBAC can be

palapation alone is not enough , mistakes can be made , so to attempt a hoem vBAC without knowing for sure if hte baby is even head down is and not having apporpriate ante natal care is not the best plan

mw appts are not just about palaption, but about checking you !your BP, urine, baby's heartbeat, ensuring you are both well

consistent ante natal care is a big factor in reducing perinatal mortality

futhermore, if you want the support of the trust for a HBAC, then avoiding ante natal care is guaranteed to ensure you are not given the support.

To have a homebirth here, need to go to midwife at 34 weeks to discuss etc and they then come and see you weekly at home until term.

If you turn up at hospital in labour and its obvious that you haven't had the appropriate ante-natal care you would be labelled as high risk.... they will feel the position of the baby and if they are unsure they'll scan you. If you do want a VBAC this is not the way to go.

Why are you do against seeing the midwifes? Is there a GP you trust you could see instead? Most women do not have extra scans after 20 weeks... but they are examined to see how the baby is lying.

nice to see you loopymumsy

I too am due my second in May.
Like you DD was 14 days late and induced.
She was back to back which meant a painfully long 27 hour labour which resulted in me being preped for a section, but them managing to turn her with Vontouse and pulling her out with forceps after getting shoulder dystosia.

All in all... something I dont wish to repeat!

So can relate to your want of a more natural experience this time.
However I dont think avoiding appointments is the way to go about it.

This time at my 21 week scan I was told DD was breech. Im seeing the midwife tomorrow so will question her about finding out if bay has turned yet or not. I think its kicking im feeling down low so im guessing not yet. Also want to find out if i get scanned or not,and when etc.

I think if you do want a HB then you need to go into it with your eyes open to the possibility of a breech birth rather than burying your head in the sand.

Id dearly love a natural nice birth this time but obviously will have to way up the pros and cons nearer the time when i know more about its position. Surely the safety of you and baby is the most important thing- so please do go to your appointments.

I do understand why you dont want to see a midwife, I feel exactly the same and personally I would quite happily not see one until I went into labour.

I am having a home birth after two sections and one VBAC and quite simply do not want to be told what I can and what I cannot do.

BUT

what I am doing is facing my midwife head on, from day one I have told her what I want to do. I have told her what I want to happen with our birth. I have researched, researched and researched on the pros and cons of every aspect of my birth and have discussed it with her, if I feel like I cannot get it all out in words I have written letters to her so she understands exactly where I am coming from. I am now 31 weeks and am still having a home birth and I think my relationship with my midwife has really strengthed, she does not tell me, she discuss's things me, I feel I can talk to her about the pros and cons of doing certain things throughout my pregnancy and for when I do go into labour.

I hope all that makes sense.

If I were you I would write down everything you want from your birth, that you want to make sure baby is in correct position (later on in pregnancy) and that you want to have a home birth. You need to stress that you want competent supportive midwifes who believe that you can birth your baby at home.
If you tell them your reluctance to even see a midwife at the moment because of all the intervention you had in your previous birth, I am sure they will pair you up with the right midwife.

Send this letter to the Head of Midwifery and sit back and wait. They will get in touch. Listen to what they say and if you are unsure of anything they say, smile and say you will have a think about it.

I have rambled on a bit but think I have managed to get my point across, you already have questions about position of baby so best to find out with a supportive midwife beside you.

Toady

ps if it was me I would avoid any consultants.

Hi Lulu

It's really worth thinking about what your options are if the baby is breech, would definitely be worth having a scan at 38/39 weeks wouldn't it?

Don't know if it's the same everywhere but my midwife told me the other day that if this baby (due in Sept) is breech like both my twins were, she wouldn't be able to try turning the baby due to my previous c-sect. Apparently there's too much risk to the scar to attempt an ECV - never experienced one myself but am guessing they are pretty full-on and physical? In my case I know I'd choose an elective c-sect rather than attempt to birth a breech baby but some midwives might be quite gung-ho about it and be very experienced with breech births.

I think others have given you v important advice about seeing midwives throughout your pregnancy - they are not just there to interfere with your plans.

With DS1:
Midwife1, 33wks - 'breech'
Midwife2, 36wks - 'head down'
GP, 38wks - 'breech'
Scan, 39+4, - 'breech'

Midwives can be wrong on diagnosing position so you definitely can't diagnose it by yourself. With DS2 I had an additional scan at 35wks (last week) to check presentation (thankfully head down), which you should be able to have - but only if you're working within the system, and not outside of it.

Having a VBAC at home, without any warning of it to the midwife seems like a recipe for disaster IMHO...

DS2 was an undiagnosed breech, planned HB to Emc-s

Had all the usual MW checks & scans, in fact my CMW felt the bump (but didn't do an internal) while i was in slow (pre-)labour the day before he was born, said he was fully engaged and it wouldn't be long...(i really like her btw so nothing against her personally)

I was told that i presented as a 'comfortable' breech as i never complained the way breech mums usually do.
the best way i was given to describe it is: sitting at a dinner table a breech mum usually complains she can't easily reach her plate. Does that makes sense?

If you've had a breech baby before i would think you could request a scan about 36 weeks just to see, i know it will.
And i want/will have an HBAC next time

hi toady ! can't believe you are 31 weeks already ! xx