UCLH or Whittington for labour?

[Clairona]

I was hoping the government promise of choice would be more than just spin but St Thomas' has declined my referral as I am outside their catchment area. I now don't know where to have my baby. The Whittington is on my doorstep but I have read bad things about their maternity services and staff. I'm going for a walk-in scan at the UCLH tomorrow as I'm not assigned to any hospital.
I would love to hear about women's experiences at either of these hospitals or if someone could recommend an alternative. Unfortunately, private is not an option. Feeling slightly overwhelmed.

sorry here:
whittingtonmum.wordpress.com/2010/03/04/high-profile-nhs-panel-struggles-to-present-case-for-ae-clos ure/

I guess my question would be, where are all the women who go to the whittington now going to go? I mean its not as if the RF or UCLH are operating under capacity.

re: infant mortality - i assume thats due to women not having appropriate ante-natal care, and because of social class issues? true that many women see midwifes in community (or their GP) but those who are high risk generally need to go to hospital more often and in areas of social depravation less likely to go if too far.

thanks whittington mum for the links
i did have a look in the blog and the other main website but i didnt see when r they suggesting to close it by, if they did decide to go ahead with it?
that is quite bad if they closed it and you had to come all the way from woodgreen to uch or royal free its not near @ all. even for myself i went to uch previously but i had the intention that in future births ill go 2 whittington as its nearer, and my last birth was quite quick so the nearer the better really
they will have people giving birth in their cars and taxis if they make people go all the way from woodgreen into uch and royal free
ive signed the petition on the site just now, but i think the campaign about whittington needs 2 focus more on mentioning maternity unit aswel because only now that youv said it i became aware, everyone is only talking about the a&e!

Hi Firawla

Here is what's going on: The North Central London NHS Strategy Plan 2010 - 2014 outlines seven options for all hospitals in North London.

Several options propose downgrading the Whittington to a fraction of it's current size, no A&E, no maternity etc.

You can download the plan here (but it's 82 pages long..)
dwhc.org.uk/docs/NCL%20Strategic%20Plan%20Final%2020100125.pdf

The problem is that no one believes that the option which propose to keep the current services at the Whittington are genuine because Rachel Tyndall, the Chair of the review panel, wrote a secret e-mail in November saying that A&E at the Whittington was going to close under all options.
www.lynnefeatherstone.org/2009/11/whittington-a-e-under-threat.htm
If the A&E closes maternity and other services are also going to get axed.

Someone made this secret e-mail public. There was a massive public outcry and suddenly we have seven options instead of four.

NHS bosses say that nothing is decided yet until a public consultation in the autumn. But they are also saying - indirectly - that they will ignore the outcome of the public consultation if they want to.

So understandably I and many others (including all MPs in the areas - even the labour ones)fear that a decision has de facto been made to downgrade the Whittington. And if we don't protest BIG TIME now it will be too late.

But I agree that most people are talking about the A&E because it's the most obvious unit under threat. But maternity is under threat, too.

When I spoke to Rachel Tyndall about this at no point was there a reassurance that the maternity unit at the Whittington will stay

I hope what I wrote makes sense. Please, please tell me if I don't because that means I need to express myself better.

Thank you for signing the petition and reading my blog.whittingtonmum.wordpress.com/

I think I will add a page to my blog
explaining why maternity services - not only A&E - are under threat. I will post it here in a couple of days time and it would be great if you could tell me if it makes sense.

I agree that the campaign should make it clearer that the maternity unit is under threat, too. I will try my best. I hope you can all help by spreading the word.

MumNWLondon

where are we all going to go if they close the Whittington?
Very good questions. Like you I can't imagine how we would all squeeze into the other hospitals...

As MP Frank Dobson said: It's the policy of cutting out the middle man. Go straight to the funeral parlour and don't bother using a hospital in between.

If you want to hear him say it check out the Camden New Journal video (Minute: 3.02) on this site:
dwhc.org.uk/2010/03/01/the-march-and-rally-press-coverage-and-the-next-steps/

OP - if you're local to the Whittington, why not go there?
I had DD there in 2007 (before makeover) and when I saw the labour ward I immediately wanted to go private. But on reflection, I felt it important to support NHS and my local hospital. And though I didn't have an ideal labour (I was induced and they kept nagging me to have a C-section after telling me I was ready to push before realising I wasn't fully dilated), I have no regrets about choosing the Whittington, mainly because I'm not convinced I wouldn't have had a similar experience at UCH.
Also, I didn't notice the shabby decor whilst in labour, but I will always be grateful for the encouragement to breastfeed, the fantastic aftercare and the cleanliness of the ward.

Here's the petition to save the Whittington for anyone interested

I managed to speak to Cathy Warwick, General Secretary of the Royal College of Midwives about how the closure plans would affect maternity services at the Whittington.

Here's what she said:
whittingtonmum.wordpress.com/2010/03/09/some-answers-about-the-future-of-maternity-at-the-whittingto n/

my SIL lives 3 mins walk from the whittington but chose UCH, i think because it is new. Hassle to get to, and from what i heard i don't think she got particularly good care there despite several ante-natal problems and i think her labour was very badly managed by them. also after care not as good - lots of breastfeeding support at whittington, none at UCH.

have a look at both and don't be too persuaded by shiny new building! If whit nearest, i'd choose that.

I am have my appointment to discuss birth plan at Whittington's birth centre on 24th march (36 weeks) will let you know how it goes - am very impressed they wanted me to come in to discuss makes a difference from RF (where I was booked in before i changed my mind).

To be fair to them I have transferred to them at 33 weeks and am out of their immediate area (around 5 miles away I am nearer Barnet/RF) and they seem to be fine with that.

Good luck with that MumNWLondon. I was booked to have my DD1 at the birth centre but unfortunately everything got quite dramatic and ended with a section. However I thought the way the MWs discussed my plans with me, and the fact that they showed me round the (v swanky) birth centre made a world of difference to how safe I felt going there. Was great and I felt really quite relaxed when I got there.

I really hope the Whit service doesn't get reduced. I am a 15 min drive from the Whit, but could imagine being stuck in traffic taking 45 mins to get to either the Free or UCH. This was actually my main consideration when deciding between UCH and the Whit for DD2. Being in strong labour in the car is bad enough, but doing it for a longer journey would be very hard.

thanks whittington mum for getting the clarification on that

Thanks Mrs Happy - this is DC3 and the other 2 were straightforward VBs so hope this one doesn't become dramatic!

I live around 4 miles from RF and 5 miles from Whittington, so no not much difference - maybe an extra 3-4 minutes. RF does have parking in labour so that was a slight advantage.

Ah, you'll be fine then. I did really appreciate that they let a pain in the bum like me book there, though. By the way, the Whit has parking too- right outside of the labour ward entrance that you go through to get to the birth centre (at the back of the hospital). Or at least that's where my DH left our car! Get them to show you when you go for your chat. It's a useful shortcut because if you go through the main entrance it is quite a schlep to maternity. I didn't know about it and worried for ages that I would end up crawling wailing down the corridors and giving birth in a lift...

Thanks Mrs Happy - useful to know - both location and fact that it exists! can you park there even if in labour during the day during the week? And do they charge you / is there any limit on how long you can park for - at RF they just charge you £3 a day when in labour rather than £3 per hour.

@ Firawla you're welcome a real stroke of luck that I managed to speak to Cathy. I'll still try and write a more comprehensive Q&A for my blog soon

@ MrsHappy thanks for telling us your experience. If I (or anyone else)would get into a similar situation like yours it would be really, really bad if the full maternity services at the Whittington weren't there anymore and you'd have to transfer to a completely different hospital in the middle of labour...

At the moment I'm mainly picking other peoples' brain of what would be the best lobbying strategy to keep maternity at the Whittington. Once I am a bit clearer I'll let you know...
You can alywas check the blog for updates
whittingtonmum.wordpress.com/

and in the meantime - please- everyone help to get as many people as you can to sign the petition
www.petitiononline.com/dwhc/petition.html

Had dd in UCH in 2006, dire experience. Uncaring staff, almost dreadful outcome due to lack of care and lack of staff (staff handovers are non existent, midwives and doctors did not seem to be on speaking terms). Aftercare was even worse. All in all the only good thing was that both of us survived in spite of UCH. Other baby died during our stay - seemed to have been avoidable from what we overheard paediatrician telling other doctor. Dreadful, dreadful place. Postnatal ward was also absolutely filthy with blood in showers. Staff could not have been less caring than they were, should all have been sacked.

dikkert i think it must have changed a lot since then, that sounds really bad but it wasn't anything like that when i had one ds there in 2008 (old building) and one in 2009 (new building) that is so sad about the baby

I gave birth at the Whittington just last weekend; was booked into the birth centre, and spent the first 7 hours there, but needed ventouse in the end so delivered in labour ward recovery room. Birth centre is lovely; double beds, en suite shower rooms, birthing pool; really geared towards active labour. Midwives were all lovely. And the doctors who delivered the baby were very efficient and talked/helped me through. Aftercare immediately following the birth could have been slightly better; they were obviously v. busy and I had to ask several times for some water and some painkillers for my severely aching bum . Postnatal ward was fine though, staff lovely, shower was clean (although I did use it straight after the cleaner came out )
Antenatal care was OK, albeit busy and not always oraganised, but I think any big London hospital would probably be the same.
It was my first birth so my frame of reference is limited, but I'd go back (if they don't close it )

If you would like to use the Whittington maternity and A&E Services in the future here are a few easy letters/e-mails you could write:

whittingtonmum.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/write-to-save-the-whittington/

There have been a few hopeful signs recently that something can be done to save the Whittington so it would be really great if you could write a few e-mails before the election.

The more of us write the better the chances that we can still debate Whittington vs UCH in a years' time

Green Party leader, Caroline Lucas, is on mumsnet tomorrow at 1 pm.

I asked her if she would save the Whittington. Let's see what she says...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mumsnet_live_events/933591-Live-webchat-with-Caroline-Lucas-Green-Party-leader- and-MEP?rnd=1269260082091

Hi. I also live in Islington so have the same dilemma. I have decided to go for UCH due to stories from a friend who had a baby in the Whittington a few years ago. While she said the maternity care was great, she didn't enjoy sharing a ward with prisoners and prison guards.

The Whittington is where women from Holloway Prison go when they need treatment. When my friend gave birth the ward had two prisoners there. One who just given birth and one was there for observation. They were accompanied by guards and causing trouble all night.

I guess whether people see prisoners while they are in the Whittington is the luck of the draw, but I don't want my baby's first hours to be surrounded by prison guards, so I'm opting for UCH.

re: the prisoner story at the whittington - you can have a bad ward experience anywhere - I am going to the MLU at the whittington and they said that most women get discharged directly from the MLU's ensuite labour rooms.

when i was on the ward at the Royal Free when DD was born 6 years ago, i was the first person brought in at 10pm. 3 other women were brought noisily in at various times in the night, one spoke no english and had no nappies and had declined vitamin k at birth and the midwife proceded to have have massive arguement/discussion with her at 3am - that the hospital had no nappies for her and she was crying as her baby had poo-ed and couldn't changed her and then the midwife was saying that she was putting her babies life at risk because of the vit k. i got out of bed, handed her 2 nappies and asked the midwife to have the vit k discussion with her in the morning.

maybe not the same as prisoners and guards but not ideal nonetheless. TBH am a little shocked that they put other women on the ward with badly behaved prisoners, i wonder how often that happens.

I gave birth at the Whittington last April and it was a terrible experience. I agree with previous threads that every mother will have a different experience, however most of my friends from my NCT course gave birth at UCH and only had words of praise for the ward and the midwives. Alas I cannot say the same for the Whittington. When I arrived at the Whittington I was made to wait in the waiting room for ages and after about an hour a nurse came and humorously told me that there was a queue for the labour ward and that I would have to wait in another ward until one of the rooms was made available. So I was put in another ward and told to lie down until someone came to examine me. This actually happened about 4 hours later by which time I was shouting for an epidural. There was only one nurse on the ward (not even a midwife) and when she examined me I was 5cm but she told me that I would have to stay where I was because there was still no room. I begged for an epidural but I was told that they couldn't administer one because I was not on the labour ward. I was given 2 shots of pethadine during a period of 6 hours and finally when I was 8 cm dilated I was taken to a room. By that time I was so exhausted that they gave me an epidural (yes at 8cm). When I say this to other midwives they are shocked. I gave birth to my son at 6.15 and I was taken up to the labour ward at around 10pm to a room with no pillow and no sheets. When I asked them for sheets a midwife pointed me towards a cupboard so I didn't even bother to ask her for a pillow. I asked for something to eat and the midwife told me 'Have you not brought anything to eat in your hospital bag'. So I just gave up and stopped asking questions because I realised that it was a losing battle. At around 3am my son started crying and I tried to breastfeed him but he wouldn't latch on so I pressed the call button and about 20 mins later a midwife turned up and told me that the call button is for emergencies only. I was shocked and appalled and the way I was being treated and I even called my husband at that point to come and get me because I couldn't face a night in the ward. The next morning (please note my son cried all night because he couldn't latch on) a lactation consultant came and put my baby on the breast a few times and when he wouldn't latch on suggested that I cup feed him which is what I did. They refused to let me go home because of his poor weight gain so I stayed there for 6 days and on the 7th day I checked myself out and got a lactation consultant home. We found out that my son was tongue tied and would have never breast-fed because his was a severe case. I was so upset that this was not picked up at the Whittington. I am now pregnant again and I decided to go for a tour round the Whittington because I heard of the new maternity ward. I decided to stay behind and ask the midwife what their policy on tongue tie was and she told me that they do check for it but when I told her about my experience she went all defensive and told me that I was probably told that he was tongue tied but didn't understand what it meant at the time. That was enough to convince me that nothing had changed and despite the new maternity ward looking like a 5-star hotel it's not the decor that makes a hospital but the staff. I have decided to go to UCH even though it is quite far from where I live but just the thought of returning to the Whittington puts me off.

Ylenia - what a terrible thing to happen - totally unacceptible esp the tongue tie bit although I am not sure what they are supposed to do if full? I wonder how often that happens. Presumably they knew you were coming in so pretty unacceptable that there wasn't a room waiting for you.

I guess all hospitals get busy - my SIL sat for 6 hours at UCLH waiting for an induction as they were too busy to deal with her. I said I'd have gone home but my MIL who was with her was getting anxious as she was already 40+14 and didn't want to leave it any longer.

I hope you wrote a formal complaint letter.

I had twins at UCL last October - elected c section which was text book fabulous .....and then the utter nightmare began......third world care....- actually care was not the world - the place was very very busy on the unfortunate day I gave birth - no one and I mean no one helped me with my twins - I was bullied into forgetting breast feeding- they didn't succeed on that one thanks to my sis and a twice a week breast feeding lady called liz from camden council who was trying to help 41 new mothers breast feed.....I was so shocked that I was alone with tiny twins 12 hours after giving birth - just horrific - I was anemic so after three days of this modern - unfriendly hell hole I was seriously ill and passed on an infection to my beautiful babies - give UCH a miss they are over run - too busy and all the staff I met where beyond caring - with the exception of two midwives - one called maureen one called sarah - who I found in an other part of the ward when I was wandering about sobbing looking for someone to help me and my baby - oh and did I say I was there three weeks and had my bed changed twice? Once by my friends - awful awful awful