Michel Odent 'Birth is no place for a Father'?

[joyfull]

Hi everyone,

Have you seen this?

www.rcm.org.uk/college/media-centre/press-releases/fatherhood-debate-birth-is-no-place-for-a-father/

I'm curious to hear people's thoughts/experiences... I'll be hearing him speak in Bristol soon. Not 100% sure I'll agree with everything he has to say, but it sounds really interesting.

but what about all the Ina May stuff about Oxytocin and 'smooching'? does he dispute this makes labour smoother and easier, or does he just ignore the anecdotal evidence?

I guess what he's saying is that if a woman's partner is stressed at being at the birth, she will react to his emotional/hormonal state and will find it harder to release oxytocin.

"There are many sorts of couples according to the duration of cohabitation, the degree of intimacy, and so forth. There are many sons of men: some can keep a low profile while their partner is in labor; others tend to behave like observers, or like guides, whereas others are much more like protectors. At the very time when the laboring woman needs to reduce the activity of her intellect (of her neocortex) and "to go to another planet" many men cannot stop being rational. Some look brave, but their release of high levels of adrenaline is contagious."- Michel Odent (rest of article here)

If they're working each other's oxytocin in the smootchy way, then that's all good surely

I read his 'Birth and Breastfeeding' Book which is a good read and touches on this topic too. I agree with him up in a general way but I and well as he will be fully aware that some men will be fine at some births.

DH at my first birth was like a spare wheel. And even before hand, I didn't know if I really wanted or needed him there. He was quietly aghast at the trauma that was my labour. I then resented that he could not see my PTSD but also understood that he had no idea what was happening to me, so how could he.

At the birth of dd2, he went along with my plan for a HB but I did not want him there pretending he knew what to do and he was happy with that too and we were going to play it by ear when the time arrived. I therefore made sure I hired a doula.

As it turned out, he was the only adult at my labour and delivery and was a great midwife. Even though all that meant that he remained calm, filled the pool and immediately followed every instruction I barked gave and stayed the hell out of my way. He later said the birth of dd2 a healing even for him for dd1's birth.

So should men be allowed? I think that these days men are under a lot of cultural pressure to attend the birth. Some men don't want to be there and some women don't want them there but don't feel like they can say that. I think that is a sad thing, myself.

My DH was at 3 of my labours. He wasn't at the birth of our 4th child as it was a v fast, unplanned breech homebirth and the midwives had him running around the house getting hot water bottles and calling an ambulance. So it was just me and two experienced, calm midwives who I knew and trusted, and was a wonderful experience.

DH wasn't exactly crap at the other labours, but he wasn't much use. At the last one I had a very intense feeling, which the midwives shared, of the 3 of us working together. There wasn't time for anyone to be concerned with hospital protocols or other patients. Sadly, I think Michel Odent's argument falls away when the mother is in a hospital having a conveyer belt delivery assisted by an overworked midwife.

Rolf that is a good point that if male partners are there or not, protocols can really mess things up.

mrsbean, you know I would rather have been left alone to get on with it as well. I was so tense with all the comings and goings of staff - it felt like a flippin cocktail party at times - with me mooing in the corner. I wish I could have banished them all, including DH.

Still in 2 minds about whether to have DH at birth of LO2 as he did not really help matters. I think there is some truth in what Michael Odent says.

Oooh I heard a tiny bit of his interview on the radio and it really annoyed me. I have no problem with the idea that some women don't want their partners there, and obviously it can be traumatic and scary for the man, especially if there are complications. But I think it's rude to dismiss completely the experience of women who were glad their partner was there (for some, having to fight their corner with crap midwives).

I would have been so much more frightened beforehand if I hadn't known DH would be there - with a first birth, you really have no idea what it will be like. Most of the time his role was limited to just being there, getting me drinks, cold flannels etc., and I was quite 'in on myself' but when my contractions stopped in the pushing stage, and I was in no pain at all in between, we actually did the smoochy thing to get them started

Oh and we haven't stopped havig sex so ner Mr Odent.

There is an expectation now that men will be the birth partner regardless of inclination or suitability. DH was very keen to be at ds1 birth and I expected him to be helpful and be my advocate unfortunately he was shockingly unhelpful and stupidly deferential to the midwives. He will be at ds2 birth in a few weeks but my mum will be my birth partner as such.

Some men are obviously wonderful at deliveries, as several of the earlier posts describe, but many are not. I wish I had been aware enough before ds1 to understand what I wanted from a birth partner and to realise that dh was not going to be up to it. It would have saved so much postnatal aggro if I hadnt felt so let down by dh.

Thought he had interesting observations but maybe jumped to wrong conclusions.

Acceptance of husbands at birth i.e. post 60s has come alongside massive dispersal of extended families & constantly changing neighbourhoods plus reduction in size of families.

Traditionally there would have been grannies, mums & a whole bundle of aunties, sisters, cousins, friendly neighbours around who had all been through labour god knows how many times providing support. Also in larger families you were much more likely to have been involved in bringing up siblings from when very small.

Now we have taken all that away and left two often very scared people with no experience of labour or babies in the labour ward with massively overworked midwifes so not surprising blokes often hopeless / can't cope.

Solution maybe getting experienced support network back into labour room rather than turfing dads out.

It is certainly true in my experience that many dads unwittingly up the anxiety in the labour room as they struggle with the idea of the woman they love in pain. They want to stop it or manage it rather than work with it (in general, not all of course) so you can spend a lot of time reassuring dad rather than looking after mum! They are absolutely invaluable if something goes wrong and you end up in theatre, they seem to step up to the plate really well in those situations. I think they thrive on having a task or a role in the proceedings.
Michel Odent is on the whole full of well intentioned crap imo, but I think a lot of the problem for dads is the birth environment. If they are at home they get on with making cups of tea, tidying, preparing etc and feel at ease in their own environment.
And as for smooching, it very rarely happens, but it is a great thing when it does!

I can't bear the idea of going through labour without my DH. He is my right arm. He will look after me, make sure I'm OK, and stick up for me if anyone tries to boss me around. Giving birth without him would be like a tree trying to bear fruit with its roots chopped off (I am aware that I sound like a hippy, but there it is).

Having read one of MO's books, I understand where he's comming from, but while woman are giving still giving birth with midwives they've never met before, in hostpitals rooms, where doors are left open to the corridor, I think we are a long way off from sugesting birth is no place for a father!

lynette agreed! Often the father seems like the only option or the least worst. I think MO's ideas are interesting and what's wrong with challenging assumptions and current norms? After all 50 years ago it would have been largely unheard of for fathers to attend, in 50 years time it may seem bizarre that they do now.

The point is, some dads don't want to be at the birth and some mums don't want them to be there - yet thanks to changes over the past 50 years (which almost everyone feels is the right thing in a civilised society), dads are welcome and encouraged at the birth.

This means that for those men who aren't comfortable with it, they are under a social pressure which is unfair and counter-productive.

While I wouldn't want to labour without my husband, I think dads and mums who want to do things differently need total support and not to be made to feel that it's socially wrong.

I don't know if this is what he's arguing, however.

I have heard that many men can cause problems by getting terribly upset about seeing their wives or girlfriends in pain, and making the medical staff "do things" (ie interventions) which the mother doesn't necessarily want but isn't in a position to stop.

Yeah, we so need another male expert to tell us what would make us feel best in childbirth. Because- Heaven help us!- the alternative would be asking us to make up our own fluffy little minds.

Dh would have been very upset if I had told him he couldnt have been there to see his children's births, and I wouldnt have wanted him to miss it either. plus I needed him too, I felt calmer and more in control when he was around. surely thats got to be beneficial?

The only time I have seen anyone seriously panicking in a hospital was a female radiographer who got hysterical when I couldn't hold my unconscious and fitting dd still enough for the scan. Females clearly not fitted for these responsible jobs then? Or all radiographers be banned, let the job be done by calm responsible parents instead?

I really wanted my dh to be with me and he was at all 3 births. I felt that I needed him more in the 3rd birth than the other 2. I just needed him to be there, not doing anything except holding my hand.
It was a very strong feeling too. I think if he had not been there, the birth experience would have been worse.

same for me, 3andwant1more

My DH was nervous about what he was supposed to be doing during labour and asked me beforehand. I replied, 'If you were in hospital and in pain would you rather be on your own or have me there?'

I can totally understand people feeling differently, particularly if their partner is likely to become a distraction for whatever reason. A lot of men are nervous about their partner being in labour and in a way they have less support than the woman giving birth. The kind of attitude put forward in the article only reinforces the idea they have something to be apprehensive about.

My tuppence worth - i have not given birth yet, but am due to do so in the next 4 weeks! - but i have had experience of severe pain following an accident.

It was a long time before i could be taken from the accident to hospital and i had three bottles of gass and air as well as morphine - the whole time all i could think of was i could cope if my partner was there. It is the comfort, the feeling that i could trust things would be OK if he told me that.

Basically what i am saying is that managing pain and fear can be a lot easier with someone you really trust present, even if they don't 'do' anything. I am not sure whether they are male or female matters.

I understand that in labour more is at play and possibly there is something in what this man says but i am convinced that i will feel less inhibited with my male partner present than all the 'strangers'/health professionals that i have never met being present.

I think what he is saying is quite controversial, but I think it needs to be taken in context. I am lucky enough to be going to his Gentle Birth talk in Bristol on Wednesday 9th December and hope to gain a clearer insight into his thoughts.

He was also the person who pioneered water birth and has made many positive inputs into the world of birth.

For those of you living in Bristol or who can travel, I have a very special limited offer on my website for tickets for £15 instead of £40 - click here www.mybabylife.co.uk for details and go and see for yourself what he is saying.