Does it bother you that so many women are so uneducated about childbirth?

[Rohan]

Right, let me start by saying that I know that not everyone is interested in the whys and wherefores, and that many women are happy with their experiences regardless of whether they understood every technical detail or not. And that's all fine. I'm not suggesting everyone should have a midwifery degree in order to give birth.

But does it rankle with anyone else when you hear mothers talking about their experiences and those of others without the faintest clue about the fundamentals of childbirth? I mean, they've been through it, surely they had some passing interest in what their options were and what would/could happen? Surely they were offered some type of education on the subject? Yet there they are spreading misinformation time and again. I'm not suggesting they're malicious or stupid or anything like that, honest I'm not - but there are some things I'd honestly expect every mother and mother to be to know, even if they don't particularly care.

To give an example of what I mean, these are a few things I've heard recently from mothers I know (and like!! I'm not making this a competition)

"I can't believe they're making her have a natural birth this time, if she couldn't get the first one out she won't be able to get this one out either, will she?' (Without knowing what the preferences of the mother were)

"I cannot believe they've let her go overdue, and it's supposed to be a big baby too! It's cruel" (Again without knowing preferences)

"Water birth can drown the baby"

I just don't get it? Feel free to flame me, although I'd prefer if it you didn't , I'm trying to get some frustration out here and still be fair. I'm not saying against these women, merely wondering how they can be so disinterested in a subject that affects them so personally?

I've heard much worse than those but I don't want to start an argument

Lynette - women do it. I did it. I know plenty of women who have done the same.

The doctor is a specialist in obstetrics, but I'm a specialist in ME. They can advise what they think is best, but it's up to us whether we want to accept their recommendations. We all know that there isn't always a consensus on these things within the medical profession. I understood what my obstetrician was concerned about, but I was able to weigh his opinion up against the opinions of other birth professionals I respected whose view was different to his. And of course I weighed it up against my own feelings and beliefs on childbirth - we all have our own comfort zones around risk taking behaviours.

"I really feel very strongly about the importance of choices through the NHS"

Yes - me too.

I would like all women to have the option of one to one continuous care throughout pregnancy and birth.

But in the absence of that sort of public provision there are huge benefits to having an independent midwife.

your premise some mums to be "disinterested" yet you are so interested is kind of smug,self satisfied

instead of getting frustrated about who said what.channel your frustration to something positive and supportive.be a volunteer, man a support line

Well, the midwife I was lumped with (I'm sure she felt the same way about me)with DS2 was a nightmare - so I guess having an IM would have been a help to me then. I was induced becuase I was very overdue, (and if I'm honest it was convenient as it was Good Friday and DH had a few days off work ) but if I'd stood up to the consultant at my 12 week scan, and disagreed with the dates, I would only have been 7 days overdue. It seems to me you often have to be damn stubborn minded (and educated to have the confidence to be so)to give birth with out intervention.

I'm rambling, aren't I?

1. Independent midwives don't have insurance.

2. What on earth is a consultant midwife?

midwives do not have indemnity insurance where a baby maybe born damaged there would be no financial recompense via an insurance company.

midwife consultant management,strategic leadership,policy and a caseload

independent midwives have no indemnity insurance nhs midwife has employer insurance

It's a pisser IM not having insurance.

But you'd only get compensation for birth injuries if you could prove malpractice.

I weighed it up: increase my risk of having a catastrophe at the birth by turning myself over to a hospital that I have no confidence in, and one that's seriously understaffed, or put myself in the hands of someone I trust and respect, but who had no insurance.

Lynette - I do think it goes beyond being well-informed. Some of the best informed women I know have been rail roaded into things they've been really unhappy about. Bloody-mindedness, external support and innate confidence is probably more important.

Ref: education, My hospital didn't do weekly ante-natals, just a one day workshop when I was 34.5 weeks. Useless if I'd been one of my two friends PG at the same time as me (a month ahead) who both had waters break at 34 weeks, and gave birth a few days after. When I asked my hospital class co-ordinator on the phone why they were so late, and what if I went prem, I was told, "you won't, don't worry"...

Luckily I was clued up anyway, although when I asked in the class if they would go through any positions and breathing they just said no, you know how to breath.

One girl sitting next to me mentioned she'd been getting contractions since 24 weeks (Braxton Hicks oviously) and she'd been really worried about it... She'd never heard of BH and her midwives at check ups hadn't spoken to her about them.

So much info in a few hours, then a brief hold of all the instruments (lots of fearful eyes in the room!), means so many women with these style classes have to wait for ages in ignorance (unless they read up and ask around), then get bombarded at the last minute, just not enough time to get used to the idea and embrace it. Ironic really given that the Birth to Five book we're given is full of pictures of earthy 70's/80's style ante-natal classes.

Friends of mine who don't read up a lot and just hear what their midwives tell them get so little info. If I mention vernix, or lanugo, or transition, or so many other pregnancy related words I get looked at in amusement like I'm some kind of swot!!

How much do independent midwives and doulas cost?

Interesting question, - I'm guessing an I'midwife is about £2000 -?

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If that's what they cost, then it's less than reassuring to be told that an independent midwife is what you need when you can't afford one. I don't begrudge anyone having one, but it can't be the only way to have 'ownership' of your own childbirth.

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Yeeeesss, I know what you mean. I think i am quite typical, I got pregnant with very little real knowledge, then I read every book, website, watched any progs on the subject, spoke to midwifes and went to classes (i even paid for pregnancy Yoga class run by a man!) yes i think some might have thought i was a swot. You just want to read all the books and it really gets you prepared, or at least in the right mindset for what you have to face.

So i was trying to be really organised and work out what might happen and had to educate the MAN via word of mouth as he may have read the books i gave him, but wanted to make sure we were on the same page, so to speak.

Then again, maybe ignorance is bliss, since on the day, the doctors only let me use my yoga ball up to a point then i had to get on the bed, on my back, no water birth, and they tell you that its for the good of the baby so really the power is all in the hospital doctors hands. The midwives were all for my water birth but there didn't seem to be any in-between options, i tried a different position on the bed but felt pretty silly. Maybe a home birth is something to consider next time.

Got VERY cross and emotional when sister-of DP started going on about how they don't bother with ante-natal classes in Africa and they just pop them out in the street, and got mad and said thats how she may have been born but I'd rather not have torn and destroyed bits down below, i plan to be happy and healthy and have more kids, and i wanted to know what my options were and not be 'told' what to do by the doctors on the day!

I had my first in 1986. I'd read all the books, been to the classes and written my birthplan. I'd been in hospital 8 hours and doing OK when the shifts changed. I got the most evil mw ever. She fought me every step of the way and DH missed the actual birth because she sent him out of the room

The girl in the next bed on the ward knew nothing about pregnancy or birth. She got into the delivery room, one push and the baby shot out like a rocket. Of the 2 of us she had by far the better experience.

So, being informed might give you more confidence to make your own choices,
but personally whilst i was giving birth - i wasn't about to argue with the professionals there to help me and my baby!
The professionals may not have read all the books on empowering the mother, as they seem to just sweep in the room and take charge of the situation. Reassuring/alarming???

Birth is a wild and natural process, and women usually need help through it. So long as you all come out the other end healthily, thats a sucessful birth I would say.

south london independent midwives £3600 or £4000London birth practice [http://www.sundayherald.com/life/people/display.var.1379850.0.this_life_allison_ewing_is_one_of_six independentmidwivesinscotlandnowthreatenedbynewlegislationalthoughfightinghercornerthe resthesmallmatterofhelpingnewlifetoflourishinthemeantime.php[www.mumsnet.com £2500 glasgow]]

I was very lucky to have a very caring mw who absolutely drummed into her classes how our bodies worked - incluing the magic word meconium could mean that the baby was in some distress. I'd stopped co-operating minutes before my dd was born as the pain of pushing her out was akin to biting on an abscessed tooth and my dd got distressed. My mw (a different one) mentioned meconium to her colleague and I nearly headbutted her as I sat up to demand what was going on. That key word had penetrated my other world I had retreated to away from the pain. I got the impression that it was rare for a woman in that hospital to be so clued-up about meconium (I moved and gave birth in a different Trust to the one I had had my ante-natal care with)

There is defintily enough information about childbirth if you look fo it, but I think the problem is many women don't realise that they don't know all they may need to know before giving birth. They don't know that they don't have the knowledge, which is fine if it doesn't bother them.

What bothers me more is the lack of knowledge of pelvic floor exercises, and an acceptance by some women that incontinence as a normal part of being a woman.

I was more bothered that DH was so ill-informed about a lot of things that were going to happen. I had read MN as was more clued in, but he had only been to the antenatal classes and only knew the "official" version of events. I made sure that he knew better for the second time around, and he told me that he felt much more confident with that extra knowledge and more able to stand up for my wishes.
Sadly, the time when we both needed him to have that knowledge was for DD1's birth, and we're paying the price even now (2 years later and still dealing with the damage to my bits caused by bullying OB).

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I quite like the idea that men were barred from the birthing chamber . Not quite so keen on the idea that you had to withdraw from society for x weeks before though!

Obviously, I would have been upper-class to have been able to do that - I daresay lower class women just had to keep going.

In my experience the attitude of the mum-to-be also determines how much research takes place ie. ME: overjoyed at being pregnant, bought books, borrowed others, went to antenatal classes, looked on the internet, asked other people and bombarded my community MW with questions at every check up. Two of my friends who perhaps weren't quite so thrilled at being pregnant did nothing and couldn't even be bothered to go to all their appointments, didn't visit the hospital and when I offered them my books, weren't interested. Even with my 2nd and 3rd pregnancies I enjoyed my research and planning and that gave me so much confidence and empowerment that I had 3 lovely deliveries.