2nd breech baby

[nulgirl]

My dd was born 2 years ago by c-section due to her being breech. It was only discovered at 39 weeks so the consultant decided that the ecv was not feasible. DD born 2 days later and was 8lb 7. Even tho it wasn't idenified until late I am pretty sure that dd was always bottom down as I never felt any kicks at the top of my bump.

Am now 34 weeks pg with 2nd dc and this baby is breech and has never been head down. I have a scan next week and meeting with consultant to discuss delivery. Before finding out the dc2 was breech I was planning a VBAC. What are my options if the baby hasn't turned?

Whhat are the chances of having 2 breech babies?
My mum confirmed that I was breech and needed turning by ecv - is there a hereditary link?
Can they do an ecv if you have already had a cs?

Many consultants won't do an ECV on a woman after a previous CS, although some will.

My third baby was breech all the way through pregnancy and I had an elective CS. My 4th baby was also breech for much of my pregnancy but I managed to get her to turn at 37 weeks by using moxabustion and acupuncture. It was like magic! She was 9lbs 10oz at 40 weeks too so don't think that a big baby can't turn late into pregnancy.

A breech VBAC is still a valid option IF you can find a midwife who is confident in delivering a breech (few and far between though)

Definitely give the moxabustion a go - it has around a 75% success rate.

Try and get hold of a copy of "Breech Birth" by Benna Waites - there's a chapter in there about some of the reasons why babies are breech. It can be hereditary - I think she shows a family tree were something like 80% of people were breech - in which case it is most likely to do with the shape of the pelvis.

Other reasons that could cause a 2nd breech baby would include an unusually shaped uterus (bicornate or cornate - but you should know that from scans), or an unresolved asymetry in the mother's spine/pelvis (if you always sit with your legs crossed the same way, for example). If you think the latter might be possible, try and find a chiro skilled in the Webster Technique (or a good physio/osteo experienced with pregnant women).

I've seen some women say reflexology has worked for them, and there is some research that suggests hypnotherapy can be effective.

My DD was born as a breech baby at home with IMs. We didn't book the IMs till 36 weeks, so we knew she was breech and were able to choose our IMs accordingly - the NHS gave me a choice of CS or (when pushed) a very medicalised vaginal breech delivery and that did NOT appeal. What I didn't try was asking the midwives directly what their breech experience was - some NHS MWs do have strong skills in this area.

I don't know that breech increases the risk of a VBAC or vice versa. I don't know of any research considering this (but then I also haven't looked). The challenge is invariably finding the information - similarly I dont' think there's any research comparing the outcomes for vaginal breech birth with either vaginal breech delivery or CS, nevermind for women looking for a VBAC.

If you want to persue a VBAC my best advice would be to ask a LOT of questions (return to toddlerhood and go for "why?" at every opportunity ) and keep asking until you understand the answers. If start talking about research, ask for the reference (there are some papers out there that have been widely discredited but are still used to justify a CS - the Hannah et al "Term Breech Trial" being the prime example). Ask for an appointment with the Head of Midwifery and ask them the same kind of questions. And lastly, consider looking for IMs - they often have more experience in breech birth and VBAC (at least seperately) than their NHS counterparts.

Fingers crossed you can get your DC to turn, and good luck making a decision if they don't - its never easy and there's no single right answer, just one that's right for you and your family at the time.

There was a study a few months back showing an increased risk for breech can be passed by the mother or father.

There's some stuff on aims about this.

I had two breech babies by cs. After the second half the obstetricians at the hospital crowded in to inspect my womb [mmm, nice emoticon] as I was such a rarity. They said they could see no reason why it had happened. However, a chiropractor I'd been seeing had always predicted I'd have another breech as she said my pelvis was tilted in a certain way - she also advised against a vb saying with my pelvis like this I'd fine one very difficult in any circs.
on moxabustion a very experienced obstetrician actually told me not to bother. He said in all other respects he was a big acupuncture fan and had travelled to china to study it but in this case he didn't believe it worked - he thinks the high success rate is merely coincidental as many breech babies turn by themselves. But that's a controversial POV to put it mildly and is not mine before i'm flamed.
I don't know enough about you, the options local to you and your temperament to advise you on your birth choice but wish you huge luck whatever happens.

Moxabustion - I prefer to go on both personal experience and the anecdotal experience of others. Tend not to always have a huge amount of respect for the opinions of obstetricians, no matter how "experienced" they are (but that would again be based on personal experience).

After having a baby be breech from 20 weeks without turning, and then the next one pretty much the same until the moxabustion experiment at 37 weeks, I too am of the opinion that it may well be down to the shape of the uterus/pelvis. But as someone who knows what it's like to really really want a VBAC, and, if I'm honest, to have been too scared to attempt a breech VBA3C, I think moxabustion has to be worth a try.

Am not flaming you mrsshackleton, just elaborating on my own POV!

Blimey, so who did your CSs then? Some moxabustionist?

thanks for the advice everyone. I did make some enquiries into moxibustion but got the impression that it wasn't advised if you had had a previous section.

I don't think i would be brave enough to risk a VBAC if the baby is still breech.

If babe is still breech when I have my scan next week I will provisionally book a c-section date at 39 weeks but request another scan before so can check whether the baby has turned

vbacqueen - what does it feel like when a baby that large turns? Could you see the baby move?

My ds was breech. My consultant said the same about babies deciding if they are going to turn rather than things like moxibusiton/shining a torch/going on all fours etc.

Ds was briefly head down at 32 weeks, but turned back to breech at that point. Oh yes, I could feel it. Imagine a giant octopus squiggling about inside you, and that will give you some idea of what it feels like! Ds turned during the night and I got virtually no sleep and then the next night he tried to turn back, but his head was stuck in the lobe of my bi-cornuate uterus (only found out about this after cs)

If I had had a pound for everyone that said to me "oooh, plenty of time to turn yet" then i would have been very rich!

I feel in a way that I am fated to have breech babies and that I should just accept this and have the 2nd section. I just feel slightly sad that I will not have a natural birth. When my friends talk about labour I feel that it is something I want to experience. I really didn't like the recovery period after the section last time and am worried about how i will be with a toddler.

nulgirl
I felt exactly the same way . Personally I felt it was safer for me and the baby to have a section - it helped that the chiropractor had told me a natural birth was vey unlikely in any case, though.
A cs is tough with a toddler to look after, try to get as much help as possible in the early days. Comfort yourself that recovery can be tough after many vbs too
You will know if the baby turns, my second was actually head up for a short happy while but then she flipped over and ... ooh, yes, the octopus analogy is a good one. Not comfortable. The end of both my pgs was murder with both little darlings kicking my bladder non stop.
If you are in any doubt about position INSIST on a scan, three doctors told me my dd2 was head down and it was only the fact I'd had a breech before and knew what it felt like that made me insist they scanned. Three doctors were wrong. Impressive. Not.
(like you vbacqueen I am not that big a fan of obstetricians in general, just thought the moxabustion one interesting in that he was clear he thought acupuncture was fantastic for many other things, just not turning babies)

nulgirl, have you thought about the possibility of waiting to go into labour before having the CS? I know that hospitals prefer to have everything booked for their own convenience, but this is YOUR choice after all.
At least that way, your baby gets to choose his/her own birthday, you get to experience a little of what labour is like, and if you insist on a scan as soon as you get to hospital, you never know, baby may have turned and you could have a natural birth.
Just a thought.

Trial of labour after a previous CS has higher risks than elective CS without labour. Please take medical advice rather than MN

Interesting thread! I too had a breech baby with ds, he was undiagnosed breech and ended up with an emergency c section as he was in distress. Born a healthy 9lb 12.
I was also a breech baby, my Mum delivered me feet first (she reminds me that midwife had to push my toes back in at some points of the labour!) I have been told that my Uterus is very 'far back' and my Mum has also been told this, so maybe it can be hereditary.

I am interested to see how this pg will go for me as I am 24 wks pg. I am planning an elective.

Mum1/2, how about your DH/DP? Was he breech too? I was surprised to read that men's genetic makeup contributes as much as the mum's to breech delivery. Good luck.

No, dh wasn't breech and neither were my sister or brother.
The thing which I find interesting is that my womb seems similar to my Mums! We do have the same hips too lol where as my sister is like a rake - like her dad!

I don't really want to have a trial by labour if the baby is still breech - the thought of going 2 weeks over and then ending up with a section is a killer. I know this shouldn't factor too heavily into my decision but i am due on the 12th Nov. If I went over and then ended up having a section I would be in trouble for support. My dh is a chef so is rushed off his feet in december. He is only really guaranteed the full fortnight off work if he can be back at work by the start of dec.

If the baby is still breech by 39 weeks then I will agree to section. I have always wanted 3 children so may be back on here in a couple of years time finding some info on VBA2C

Thanks for your help everyone

My take on comeplementery stuff was that it couldn't do any harm and it might just work. None of the methods discussed here are hands-on the baby at all and so none will force the baby around if it is breech for a good reason.

At the end of the day, though, go with what feels right for you and you won't be too far wrong.

is that so, cthea? VBAC carries slightly increased risk of rupture, but still a small, small risk and equatable to the risk of cord prolapse, which every woman is at risk of.. and some labour is good for the baby too. i would b e interested to know why you thikn that a trial of labour is more risky than a planned c.s..?

Some research I read, lulumama. I can start putting the links on here but I think it would be tedious for both. I think my main point is that the OP needs medical advice rather than the breezy advice given here that you just go into labour and have an emergency CS, it's all the same. It's annoying to read about doctors' conspiracy and conveneience being put forth all the time.

people here are speaking from their own experiences, and from their own research too

medical advice might be one thing and personal opinoin another, but no one gives information glibly.

many people especially those who have had VBAC or breech births will have spent a lot of time looking into the risks and benefits of birth

when I was planning my own VBAC, i challenged medical opinion and was treated a lot differently after that

it is always worth questioning things

if the OP chooses an elective c.s, good luck to her, if she goes for a VB, again, good luck to her!

but surely info from other women who have been through the same decision is helpful in making an informed decision

i am always interested in reserch and information relating to childbirth, i would not find it tedious

very succinctly put lulumama, thanks

Well, yes, but estimates of risk are difficult and personal. You can't tell someone else to ignore increased risks just because they didn't matter to you. They may well matter to someone else, even if tiny overall. You'll find that a doctor can be sued and prosecuted for not mentioning very, very small risks as part of taking informed consent from the patient before a procedure. It's a well regulated profession, unlike others

if the OP chooses an elective c.s, good luck to her, if she goes for a VB, again, good luck to her!

Absolutely. I was questioning whether trial of labour advice has any place w/o mentioning increased risks (uterine rupture, hysterectomy etc).

i think that the vast majority of posts regarding VBAC, breech birth etc do mention the risks. even those of us who are wildly enthusiastic about normal births do recognise their are risks. but sometimes the actual percentage is not in proportion to the guilt/scare tactics that women are given

had this very discussion with a consultant obs. recenlty.. how can women be expected to make an infomred decision about their birth when they are told their baby will die/ be terribly harmed or they are being selfish etc.

undermining womens' confidence in their own bodies and their own decision making process benefits no-one

i don;t thikn anyone pretends that childbirth, wheterh a VB or c.s is a walk in the park. a vaginal breech birth carries risks. an elective c.s carries risks. neither option is risk free, but discussin with other women who have done the very thing you are thinking about is important

i am not sure if by your last sentence you are implying anything about my profession? or am i reading to much into it

increased risk of hysterectomy with c.s too i thought? and sub fertility ? and adhesiosn? nicks to the bladder etc..

there are risks to each type of birth

i find it frustarting sometimes when c.s is recommended as though it is some sort of risk free panacea ... not by you, but for instance there was a thread last night , someone wanting ot have a c.s and simultanoues tummy tuck... now, IMO, that is glib!

i thikn sometimes it is forgotten that although c.s is another mode of delivery, it is major abdominal surgery, the emotional impact is often ignored and then after the surgery, you have to get to grips with a newborn too!