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Childbirth

Share experiences and get support around labour, birth and recovery.

Natural - v - Caesarean - a new thread

457 replies

JoolsToo · 25/02/2005 10:29

sorry to be bossy but can we carry on here?

I'm for natural when possible

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Mud · 25/02/2005 13:42

Mistressmary .I am interested in knowing what the answer would be that you don't even need to consider

a c-section is not an easy option, but it is an option

Cristina7 · 25/02/2005 13:42

LOL at FairyMum's babies. Good one!

mrsflowerpot · 25/02/2005 13:43

yes, I hate 'elective', makes it sound like I chose it when in reality I cried for the last week of pregnancy after I was told I had to have it. (I know that makes me sound really pathetic and selfish, but I was a total basket case with the fear and the disappointment.)

WideWebWitch · 25/02/2005 13:44

I think too posh to push is an awful phrase. Mp, I also think the words we use are important, which is why I've used the words vaginal birth or vb as opposed to the awful 'natural' birth.

MistressMary · 25/02/2005 13:45

After the pain I endured and the fact I haven't come to terms with it and I haven't had my notes back form hospital yet to talk over it and I cannot put myself thorough that again I see it as a better option. Maybe easy is not the correct term I meant.
If the forceps failed then I would have gone onto a cesarian anyhow?

Gwenick · 25/02/2005 13:45

MP - I've done both - an totally unessecary CS - no labour, no contractions, told me there was a 'risk' of my baby becoming distressed if they induced me - and being a 1st time mum I believed them. So wasn't even 'rushed' in for one - had to wait 4hrs!

Then had a horrendous VBAC (still getting occasinal flashbacks even 15 months on), induced, failed pain relief, ventouse, episitomy and 4th degree tear awful experience.

1 in 2500 women will die from a CS
1 in 10,000 women will die from a VB

4x times great risk doesn't really 'show' it was well.

Depiste my experience with my VBAC if I ever manage to talk DH into another child I won't be 'opting' for a CS (although if it becomes medically nessecary then I will have one of course).

MistressMary · 25/02/2005 13:47

Oops sorry for the rant.
Got a bit emotional then.

WideWebWitch · 25/02/2005 13:48

Gwenick, where are those stats from? Because they do point to vb being statistically safer. In which case we really should be asking why the rate is so high and rising.

pupuce · 25/02/2005 13:49

Looking at a DoH document on stats, I found this:
"From a level of under 3% in the 1950s, the proportion of deliveries that were by cs rose to 9% by 1980 and 12% by 1990. During the 90s the rate has increased more rapidly, reaching 21% by 2000."

In the same doc they explain that 20% of inductions lead to CS.... now they do not differenciate primip (1st vaginal birth) and multip (had baby before).... my experience (and maybe Mears does not see it like that)... it is 1st time mums whose induction go wrong which have a higher incidence of a CS.... so if you are induced for a 1st baby I reckon your chances are higher than 20% to end up in cs and lower than 20% if it isn't your 1st baby.... sadly they do not have such stats. This is my opinion and not backd up by facts but by what I see with my clients.

Generally I am all for freedom of choice - there is no point in "forcing" someone with Aloha's view to have a vaginal birth becasue she is extremly unlikely to have a good experience of it for many reasons (and this isn't meant as a criticsm of Aloha at all- she knows how I feel about her situation!).... what I am really vocal about is women getting crap care in labour, including bad inductions which can only lead to managed births and CS.... and therefore increase elective sections the next time as the mother is traumautised !

For me the reason sections are getting more frequent is fundamentally bad care in labour because hospitals are understaffed ! There are more inductions and more managed biths generally.... this leads to either a cs or a woman who WILL NOT try for a vaginal birth again (some won't even contemplate getting pregnant)..... what an AWFUL state of afffairs this is.... we can all recount the birth of our kids with great details so can our mums and grandmothers.... this is because it is an extremly important event in a woman's life.... so to ruin ikt by bad care is (IMHO) unforgivable ! (rant over )

To be honest I often get angry when a woman tells me "my husband doesn't want me to have a doula because he feels he can support me" I get angry because it is NOT his body and it is NOT him who will have to go through it (the pain, ....) and the nightmares if it is particularely traumatic.... I feel the same with anyone forcing a woman to have a vaginal birth if she isn't willing, prepared , ready....
And equally I feel that women who want a vaginal birth (for breech, multiple births or a VBAC) should be correctly supported and not brandished "mad".... every case has its merit.... some are riskier than others and it is important to speak to the professionals about any particular case - though in my own trust I know 2 OB who totally differ on VBAC in water! And they are in the same trust, they are both consultants and same generation.... so you would have one pro and one against !

lockets · 25/02/2005 13:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

Gwenick · 25/02/2005 13:50

I can't remember - and can't find it again - I found the figures this morning but I can't find it - forgot to link like I usually do - I'll see if I can find them again

pupuce · 25/02/2005 13:51

WWW - I don't have the time now but I'll try to find stats later (maybe WHO has some).
CS have a definitely a higher rate of maternal and foetal morbidity and mortality.

MistressMary · 25/02/2005 13:51

No they haven't. And why does it takes so long?

FairyMum · 25/02/2005 13:51

Could not these figures reflect that some c-section births might already be a true emergency in many cases? "natural" labour allowed to progress too far or mothers who already suffer from complications who led to the c-section in the first place?

morningpaper · 25/02/2005 13:52

WWW: it only cited maternal deaths not infant deaths or complications

Gwenick · 25/02/2005 13:52

but even people who WILL NOT have a VB end up having one anyhow - see my story further below about my friend who didn't have chance to get her CS!

morningpaper · 25/02/2005 13:52

or post-traumatic shock

WideWebWitch · 25/02/2005 13:53

True mp, true, no infant mortality stat there. But presumably maternal mortality is quite important too?

Mud · 25/02/2005 13:54

I think it would go without saying that "CS have a definitely a higher rate of maternal and foetal morbidity and mortality."

CS are employed in some of the most dangerous and complicated cases, it is hardly a level playing field

its like comparing apples and gorillas

morningpaper · 25/02/2005 13:54

I would also say that maternal mental health is important...

Gwenick · 25/02/2005 13:55

but MP the risk of developing PND is higher with a CS than with a VB - so surely in that case the 'risk' must be evened out?

Mud · 25/02/2005 13:56

oo there's so many 'facts' flying around this thread isn't there?

WideWebWitch · 25/02/2005 13:58

Interesting article here, Beverley Lawrence Beech reports on the caesarean section guidelines for parents, birth supporters and those who work in the maternity services I haven't read all of it but will go back and do so later. I do appreciate that AIMS can't be said to be completely unbiased!

WideWebWitch · 25/02/2005 13:59

So the UK c section rate is now 23% as opposed to the 10% the delegates at a WHO conference decided was justifiable/to be expected.

JoolsToo · 25/02/2005 14:00

www - "It wasn't so long ago that women gave birth with legs in stirrups and enemas and shaving were routine."

got the 'T' shirt - don't get me started on enemas (pink tubes, funnels and gallons of water )

the good old days

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